[Politics] Brexit

dingodan · Oct 7, 2019

midnight_rendezvous said:
Sounds like democracy to me...

It's only democracy when you honour the vote and consent to the outcome if you lost.

Rerunning a vote you didn't like the outcome of is two fingers up to democracy.

dingodan · Oct 7, 2019

WATFORD zero said:
No, I'm not. I am specifically talking about the general population.

You are trying to claim that the general population voted for exactly what you voted for. Someone is confused and I'm afraid it's not me.

It's MP's who haven't been able to agree to a deal, and who by a majority refuse to allow no deal, and by a majority would have preferred to remain.

Not the public.

dingodan · Oct 7, 2019

I'll tell you what, at this point I think I am in favor of a second referendum. Perhaps that will sort this all out and put things to bed once and for all.

I'll let you know if I intend to accept the result when the votes have been counted.

Lever · Oct 7, 2019

dingodan said:
How about a free trade deal?

Sounds attractive, doesn't it.... but the rest of the world is rapidly and happily aligning into 'blocs' and so I think that 'plucky' Blighty will find it challenging to keep up, never mind 'move on'. We will see......

portslade seagull · Oct 7, 2019

Motogull said:
As a remainer I've never been comfortable with that stance. I saw people voting for change. I don't think they cared what that change was, they just wanted something different. Reckless in my eyes, but there you go. This may be in part why Alexander Boris de Piffle bungle**** Johnson is gaining in the polls. Brexit fatigue and the promise of something happening.

That made me titter, like the name

clapham_gull · Oct 7, 2019

dingodan said:
It's only not worked out well so far because a lot of people took part in a vote and refuse to accept the result.

I doubt anyone expected that, no one would have bothered voting if they thought one side wouldn't accept the outcome.

It's only not worked because a solution hasn't been found to the Northern Ireland / Ireland border issue.

Anyone who believes anything else is either stupid or in complete denial.

dingodan · Oct 7, 2019

Lever said:
Sounds attractive, doesn't it.... but the rest of the world is rapidly and happily aligning into 'blocs' and so I think that 'plucky' Blighty will find it challenging to keep up, never mind 'move on'. We will see......

Look at the top most prosperous trading nations in the world and see how many of them are part of trading blocs.

You might find yourself surprised.

midnight_rendezvous · Oct 7, 2019

dingodan said:
It's only not worked out well so far because a lot of people took part in a vote and refuse to accept the result.

I doubt anyone expected that, no one would have bothered voting if they thought one side wouldn't accept the outcome.

It hasn’t worked out well because no one from the Leave campaign defined the parameters of what leave would actually mean and what version we’d get (who can forget BJ labelling the prospect of a no deal as “project fear”). It was all sound bites and tag lines. It was only after the referendum, when the actually work had to be done, that they seemed to realise it was actually more complex than they let on to the public. Of course, it also doesn’t help that Leavers haven’t been able to decide what version of leave they want, which is why the Brexiteers have frustrated the process in their own right, a fact leave voters often overlook.

Baldseagull · Oct 7, 2019

dingodan said:
Well there was a question on the ballot paper, which said do you want to leave the EU or remain in the EU.

I'm going with that, since that is what it said.

But you have a very hard line on that, would it be acceptable to you if we remained in the open skies agreement for example, or is that not on?

midnight_rendezvous · Oct 7, 2019

dingodan said:
It's only democracy when you honour the vote and consent to the outcome if you lost.

Rerunning a vote you didn't like the outcome of is two fingers up to democracy.

Surely having a referendum in 2016 was rerunning the referendum from 1975?

Wasn’t it David Davis who said that a democracy where people can’t change their minds ceases to be a democracy? Or something to that affect?

Motogull · Oct 7, 2019

Lever said:
I think recklessness is attractive to some people....

Some being the operative word.

I 'enjoy' discussing Brexit with those who have done their research and talk about real reasons (the ones the prat Nigel doesn't because they are a bit 'Sun says') why they want to leave. Then I speak to those who haven't and I hate them for making feel like an intellectual snob, such is their inability to speak beyond 'just get on with it'.

Its a fukken disaster with no way out.

Lever · Oct 7, 2019

dingodan said:
Look at the top most prosperous trading nations in the world and see how many of them are part of trading blocs.

You might find yourself surprised.

Please save me the effort and tell me what you know that I obviously don't.......

dingodan · Oct 7, 2019

Baldseagull said:
But you have a very hard line on that, would it be acceptable to you if we remained in the open skies agreement for example, or is that not on?

Of course that would be fine, as long as the logic of that doesn't end up meaning we have to stay a member of any of the political institutions of the EU. I also think we should work together on science/medicine, space, pretty much everything. Only it should be on a voluntary basis, and we, and the EU, should be able to work together or not at any time. Mutual respect and boundaries is what is important. I don't want us to be able to force anything on any other country, and I don't want any other country to be able to force anything on us.

I think that's pretty reasonable.

nicko31 · Oct 7, 2019

clapham_gull said:
It's only not worked because a solution hasn't been found to the Northern Ireland / Ireland border issue.

Anyone who believes anything else is either stupid or in complete denial.

Unless we stay in the customs union things will end badly

NI was always gonna be an issue, just a pity so many failed to listen to Blair and Major in June 2016, they made a bit thing about it

We were warned and have spent the last 3 years struggling to face reality

Lever · Oct 7, 2019

Motogull said:
Some being the operative word.

I 'enjoy' discussing Brexit with those who have done their research and talk about real reasons (the ones the prat Nigel doesn't because they are a bit 'Sun says') why they want to leave. Then I speak to those who haven't and I hate them for making feel like an intellectual snob, such is their inability to speak beyond 'just get on with it'.

Its a fukken disaster with no way out.

I hope you are wrong and fear you are right.
I share your points about research but always feel I have more to learn.

dingodan · Oct 7, 2019

midnight_rendezvous said:
Surely having a referendum in 2016 was rerunning the referendum from 1975?

Wasn’t it David Davis who said that a democracy where people can’t change their minds ceases to be a democracy? Or something to that affect?

The vote in 1975 was respected, and we took another look 40 years later. If you wanted another vote in 2055, I wouldn't oppose that. But I want us to leave now, because that is the decision we were asked to make and we made it.

beorhthelm · Oct 7, 2019

midnight_rendezvous said:
Surely having a referendum in 2016 was rerunning the referendum from 1975?

Wasn’t it David Davis who said that a democracy where people can’t change their minds ceases to be a democracy? Or something to that affect?

so we should come back to this in 35-40 years then?

The Clamp · Oct 7, 2019

dingodan said:
There it is again. Calling me a "bullshitter" because you don't agree with me.

I'm not saying let's all agree with my opinion, I'm saying let's all agree that we should do what the majority voted for in a democratic vote, because that is how a democractic vote works.

Why not be civil even if you didn't get the outcome you wanted in the vote? Stop treating this issue like some kind of football rivalry.

It wasn't a democratic vote. It was a sham from the off. And no, I won't accept the result. Democracy didn't end in 2016 even if it did disappear for a while in June of that year.

dingodan · Oct 7, 2019

The Clamp said:
It wasn't a democratic vote. It was a sham from the off. And no, I won't accept the result. Democracy didn't end in 2016 even if it did disappear for a while in June of that year.

If remain had won would it have been a democratic vote by any chance?

If remain had won would you accept it?

You don't need to answer, we know the answer.

clapham_gull · Oct 7, 2019

The HMRC have just released analysis that predicts the cost of a no deal Brexit to be 15bn a year in red tape for EU-UK businesses.

https://www.ft.com/content/30c58758-e91e-11e9-a240-3b065ef5fc55

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