[Politics] Brexit

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 13, 2016

pastafarian said:
will you ever forgive me?

If you understand your mistake and show genuine remorse of course I will :smile:

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 13, 2016

cunning fergus said:
I wouldn't need to "resort to such behaviour" if individuals did not make points that are patently untrue.

This is quite an illuminating statement about your mindset.

KingstonSeagull · Apr 13, 2016

Very similar results that were shown in the last poll currently.

pastafarian · Apr 13, 2016

KingstonSeagull said:
Very similar results that were shown in the last poll currently.

but unfortunately the undecided(the crucial group) didnt have a voice again......without them polls are meh and its just another excuse to have an EU kick off

KingstonSeagull · Apr 13, 2016

pastafarian said:
but unfortunately the undecided(the crucial group) didnt have a voice again......without them polls are meh and its just another excuse to have an EU kick off

The undecideds don't have a voice on the day either. They either don't vote, thus having no impact or vote... Simple as that really.

Captain Sensible · Apr 13, 2016

KingstonSeagull said:
Very similar results that were shown in the last poll currently.

Goes to show that those the shout loudest aren't necessarily the majority.

I would have expected a 70% 30% in favour of Brexit on NSC by the general narrative of most conversations on this issue. Far from it.

5ways · Apr 13, 2016

pastafarian said:
yes it is......its proof that we can do a trade deal with the EU without having to submit to free movement,just look at all the countries that trade with the EU that free movement does not come into play. 5ways has been saying we must submit to free movement if we wish to trade with the EU..........THIS IS A LIE (sorry for shouting)

Our trade is more dependent on Europe than Chile's, Korea's, or Mexico's is. Over 50%. As I assume is the same with Norway or Switzerland. If you are physically part of Europe and rely on Europe for a great deal of your exports then yes - it is highly highly likely that free movement will be a stipulation of any re-entry into the single market. Canada's far-reaching deal doesn't doesn't include financial services, which is essential. Moreover there are millions of Brits in Europe and millions of Europeans in the UK. Our deal will have to be more far-reaching and complicated. The closer you are to Europe the stronger will be the demands for the four principles of the tariff-free zone: free movement of labour, goods, services and capital. We are Europeans, geographically speaking, and will be subject to these demands.

We will also be subject to further demands because as a beneficiary of the EU but not a member, like Norway, we will still be subject to a large amount of EU law and regulation but have no means of influencing it ourselves.

pastafarian · Apr 13, 2016

KingstonSeagull said:
The undecideds don't have a voice on the day either. They either don't vote, thus having no impact or vote... Simple as that really.

currently they do have a voice.
not having a go at you but every serious poll has an undecided section at the moment,surely the same should apply for NSC.

undecided should always be included in polls until you have exit polls.......no?

5ways · Apr 13, 2016

FamilyGuy said:
If we weren't already in, and you had the opportunity to vote whether to join the EU or not - how would you vote?

To me that's the clincher - why would anyone look at the EU from the outside and see it as a club that we want to join?

Because it is essential to our economic stability, prosperity and security

Bladders · Apr 13, 2016

5ways said:
Our trade is more dependent on Europe than Chile's, Korea's, or Mexico's is. Over 50%. As I assume is the same with Norway or Switzerland. If you are physically part of Europe and rely on Europe for a great deal of your exports then yes - it is highly highly likely that free movement will be a stipulation of any re-entry into the single market. Canada's far-reaching deal doesn't doesn't include financial services, which is essential. Moreover there are millions of Brits in Europe and millions of Europeans in the UK. Our deal will have to be more far-reaching and complicated. The closer you are to Europe the stronger will be the demands for the four principles of the tariff-free zone: free movement of labour, goods, services and capital. We are Europeans, geographically speaking, and will be subject to these demands.

We will also be subject to further demands because as a beneficiary of the EU but not a member, like Norway, we will still be subject to a large amount of EU law and regulation but have no means of influencing it ourselves.

No we wont, again making the EU to sound like its some kind of behemoth, its us, France and Germany propping up a load of satellites. With a third of that gone Europe will not have the muscle to just make us jump through hoops for them.

Trade will still happen both ways. They desperately need us to stay so the propaganda of us suddenly going back to the stone age are well wide of the mark.

5ways · Apr 13, 2016

pastafarian said:
he has said we cannot trade with the EU without first submitting to the fundamental EU doodah of free movement
his map would suggest nations can trade with the EU without submitting to free movement

No we would trade with the EU on a WTO basis. This puts on par with, say, New Zealand. This makes us subject to tariffs, on agriculture, or manufacturing like car parts, and finance. If you want full access it comes with a cost. Free movement is one of those costs.

Bladders · Apr 13, 2016

Some nice friendly EU trade here :facepalm:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/10/spain-hits-back-at-french-guerre-des-vins-wine-protest

pastafarian · Apr 13, 2016

5ways said:
Our trade is more dependent on Europe than Chile's, Korea's, or Mexico's is. Over 50%. As I assume is the same with Norway or Switzerland. If you are physically part of Europe and rely on Europe for a great deal of your exports then yes - it is highly highly likely that free movement will be a stipulation of any re-entry into the single market. Canada's far-reaching deal doesn't doesn't include financial services, which is essential. Moreover there are millions of Brits in Europe and millions of Europeans in the UK. Our deal will have to be more far-reaching and complicated. The closer you are to Europe the stronger will be the demands for the four principles of the tariff-free zone: free movement of labour, goods, services and capital. We are Europeans, geographically speaking, and will be subject to these demands.

We will also be subject to further demands because as a beneficiary of the EU but not a member, like Norway, we will still be subject to a large amount of EU law and regulation but have no means of influencing it ourselves.

blah blah blah
you are changing the record

"it is highly highly likely that free movement will be a stipulation of any re-entry into the single market." this is entirely different from you saying previously that we cant trade without accepting free movement. come on own up........you are talking bollocks

5ways · Apr 13, 2016

Bladders said:
No we wont, again making the EU to sound like its some kind of behemoth, its us, France and Germany propping up a load of satellites. With a third of that gone Europe will not have the muscle to just make us jump through hoops for them.

Trade will still happen both ways. They desperately need us to stay so the propaganda of us suddenly going back to the stone age are well wide of the mark.

I'm not saying that we will go back to the stone age at all. Our full access becomes partial access. Our ability to influence and challenge European regulation becomes greatly reduced. Norway has to accept single market laws, European court rulings and so on without influencing them. Switzerland has to accept free movement. Once a deal is inked in the future Bulgaria will have more say our trading relationship with Germany than we would.

pastafarian · Apr 13, 2016

5ways said:
No we would trade with the EU on a WTO basis. This puts on par with, say, New Zealand. This makes us subject to tariffs, on agriculture, or manufacturing like car parts, and finance. If you want full access it comes with a cost. Free movement is one of those costs.

This is going to be the simplest question you could ever answer,its really yes or no

Can a country have a Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with the EU that does not involve free movement of people

Bladders · Apr 13, 2016

5ways said:
I'm not saying that we will go back to the stone age at all. Our full access becomes partial access. Our ability to influence and challenge European regulation becomes greatly reduced. Norway has to accept single market laws, European court rulings and so on without influencing them. Switzerland has to accept free movement. Once a deal is inked in the future Bulgaria will have more say our trading relationship with Germany than we would.

These are tiny populous countries, hardly the same clout as one with 60 million buyers/sellers is it. Norway and Switzerland are not the UK. Nothing like it.

sparkie · Apr 13, 2016

FamilyGuy said:
If we weren't already in, and you had the opportunity to vote whether to join the EU or not - how would you vote?

To me that's the clincher - why would anyone look at the EU from the outside and see it as a club that we want to join?

pastafarian said:
Precisely

...

no dickheads would sign up to that

As an observation, I was under the impression that there is a list of countries who do want to join the EU.

They seem to hold the opposite opinion to you guys. Does this mean they are collective 'dickheads' ?

pastafarian · Apr 13, 2016

5ways said:
ISwitzerland has to accept free movement.

see referendum

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 13, 2016

pastafarian said:
see referendum

What's the latest with their referendum result? It was a couple of years ago now.

Bladders · Apr 13, 2016

sparkie said:
As an observation, I was under the impression that there is a list of countries who do want to join the EU.

They seem to hold the opposite opinion to you guys. Does this mean they are collective 'dickheads' ?

Which power economies are they then? or are they more broke nations wanting a slice of OUR pie?

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