Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?


  • Total voters
    1,081


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
49,983
Goldstone
As per Nigel Evans on BBC News, the Conservative Party are entrenched in defining what Brexit means and ruling out a customs union and a single market arrangement – even though this is still leaving the EU, which is all the referendum asked. So it is okay for one party to draw distinct lines in the sand, but when the rest of the house wants a line in the sand against a no deal, they are not serving the public interest.
But they haven't drawn that line in the sand. They haven't ruled out the possibility of a customs union and single market arrangement. It's not what they want, but it's not off the table.
 


Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
10,869
Crawley
Brexit must be behind this then.

June 2018: UK attracts £2.3bn in tech investments and 1,600 new jobs
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44452444

June 2018: Salesforce commits to $2.5bn UK investment ahead of No 10 meeting
https://www.bmmagazine.co.uk/news/salesforce-invests-2-5bn-in-uk/

September 2018: INEOS is to invest £60 million in the UK to expand production at its Grangemouth site
https://www.ineos.com/news/ineos-gr...to-expand-production-at-its-grangemouth-site/

December 2018: UCB to invest £1bn into UK under life sciences sector deal
http://www.pharmatimes.com/news/ucb_to_invest_1bn_into_uk_under_life_sciences_sector_deal_1272053

I'm sure you will now tell me that any positive investment news is despite Brexit, and any negative investment news is because of it.

Sorry but you can't have it both ways.

It is possible that, despite having to think about whether the extra risk is worth it, it is still worth it. That is to say, some projects will survive a downturn and can go ahead, and others would be best either relocated or shelved. Most of those links regard sectors where Britain has a lead in the tech involved, and are not easily moved, there just is not the skill base and experience in most other places. They are most welcome, but they won't be taking people off the dole in Teeside.
 




Thunder Bolt

Ordinary Supporter
But they haven't drawn that line in the sand. They haven't ruled out the possibility of a customs union and single market arrangement. It's not what they want, but it's not off the table.

[tweet]1085863854654046208[/tweet]

Also from Jim Pickard (Financial Times)

Downing St says customs union is unacceptable: “The PM is absolutely clear on the importance of having an independent trade policy to honour the result of the referendum.”

That’s an odd interpretation of the 2016 referendum question which asked only if UK should leave or remain.

11:49 AM - 17 Jan 2019
 






Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,719
Hove
But they haven't drawn that line in the sand. They haven't ruled out the possibility of a customs union and single market arrangement. It's not what they want, but it's not off the table.

Nigel Evans has stated it is off the table, he's just done it on BBC News. Twice. :shrug:
 




Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
10,869
Crawley
A second vote isn't a "way out". If people vote to remain then we no longer have a "Brexit" problem. But we have a new one, perhaps a greater one. A crisis of confidence in democracy itself and the dividing political crack in this country becomes a fissure. If people vote to leave again then it's full circle and we are back where we started two years ago.

People don't want a "way out", they want the vote respected. Respecting the vote is more important than anything. The consequences of leaving the EU without a deal in place may be somewhat problematic, but the consequences of not respecting the vote are worse.

The real problem here is that the HoC find themselves, by a majority, in disagreement with the people. Only one side will have their will respected. The political class or the people. & I cannot overstate how severe a problem we would face if it turns out that we have a government for, of, and by, the politial class, rather than the people.

We can get through a Brexit without a deal on WTO terms. I'm not sure how we can get through a crisis of confidence in democracy itself.

Whatever we end up with, the exposing of the failings of our system is I think going to bring some changes to it. I am mindful that the system has worked fairly well for a very long time, but I think now, it is no longer fit for purpose.
 




Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
49,983
Goldstone
If you are prepared to compromise you have to be prepared to change your stance, it's clear from all the leading Tory statements today that isn't going to happen. She is going to tweak her deal and it will get voted down again at the end of the month.
I wouldn't be surprised if her deal has the minutest of tweaks and then gets rejected again, but if that happens at some point she will have to compromise.

Nigel Evans has stated it is off the table, he's just done it on BBC News. Twice. :shrug:
Fair enough if they're saying that, although we know that what they say and what happens are not necessarily the same thing. They say we won't have another referendum, and we probably won't, but we might. I guess it means that whatever we go back to the EU with will not include customs union and single market, but that doesn't mean we won't have to go back there, because like you say, whatever she ends up with will probably get rejected.

Can you answer the question I asked you earlier?
The negotiating position should be that we want a deal that works for both sides, and failing that, we'll have no deal which harms both sides. If you make it law that you can't leave without a deal, then the EU simply tell you what their terms are - no negotiation necessary, they just tell you what they want, and that's that, you have to take it or withdraw Article 50. How on earth do you think we could negotiate with that?
 


Thunder Bolt

Ordinary Supporter
I completely disagree.

The negotiating position should be that we want a deal that works for both sides, and failing that, we'll have no deal which harms both sides. If you make it law that you can't leave without a deal, then the EU simply tell you what their terms are - no negotiation necessary, they just tell you what they want, and that's that, you have to take it or withdraw Article 50. How on earth do you think we could negotiate with that?

[tweet]1085878726833917952[/tweet]
 


Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
10,869
Crawley
That's not a counter argument. The UK is either perceived to be a good investment or not.

That has nothing to do with whether you consider the owner of a company a douchebag or not.

If he is someone who is happy to lower the working conditions for his workforce to put profits up, and his companies tax revenues are important to the country, it is a worry, because he can influence policy. You know, like Farage said, we can be more competitive.
 






Chicken Run

Member Since Jul 2003
NSC Patreon
Jul 17, 2003
18,274
Valley of Hangleton
Equally you could say that Corbyn has spent his time in opposition insulting the government, and then expects to be invited to talks after that?

Both parties insult each other as part of politics, that's how it works. Either he wants to discuss a way forward, or he doesn't.

The bloke is a grade A bell end, he would rather surround himself with his snide mates from Momentum and similar and get a few cheers than get stuck in and sort the problem out, the bloke is spineless, could you imagine what he’d be like if he actually got to number 10!
 


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Sep 1, 2017
17,517
Deepest, darkest Sussex
*Man drowning*

Corbyn: "I've been very clear I do not want this man to drown."
People; "Great, then do something about it."
Corbyn: "I've been very clear I do not want this man to drown."
People: "Dude, he's drowning like right now. Do something."
Corbyn: "I am doing something, I am being very clear that I do not want this man to drown."
People: "Mate, I've got the coastguard on the phone, can you talk to them?"
Corbyn: "I will only talk to them if they rule out this man drowning."
People: "They're trying to stop it happening, just talk to them!"
Corbyn: "Their refusal to rule it out means I have no confidence in the Coastguard."
People: "He's disappearing below the waves, you're holding a lifebelt, just f**king throw it!"
Corbyn: "I've already been very clear I do not want this man to drown."
People: "Then throw the lifebelt!"
Corbyn: "I willabide by the decision of my party but throwing the belt is not off the table."
People: "..."
Corbynites: "Brilliant master strategy again, Jeremy! Playing 8D chess all at the same time. I think we need a Twitterstorm about how great you are!"
People: "..."
Corbyn: "I sense that some of you still have confidence in the coastguard, I demand another show of no confidence."
People: "Too late, he's dead."
Corbyn: "Meh, not my fault. I demanded it be ruled out."
 




Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,719
Hove
The bloke is a grade A bell end, he would rather surround himself with his snide mates from Momentum and similar and get a few cheers than get stuck in and sort the problem out, the bloke is spineless, could you imagine what he’d be like if he actually got to number 10!

He's not in no.10, he's not leading the government, his party doesn't have a majority in the house, they are not setting the Brexit agenda, policy etc. But your rage is directed at him, I've not seen any of your posts directed at the real architects of this mess. Could you be any more partisan?
 


lost in london

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2003
1,780
London
Forgot to post this when he said it a few days ago, but David Lammy nailed Brexit for me:

Brexit is a con, a trick, a swindle, a fraud, a deception that will hurt most of those people it promised to help, a dangerous fantasy which will make every problem it claims to solve worse ...
Friends on this side of the House tell me to appease Labour voters in industrial towns - the former miners, the factory workers, those who feel they’ve been left behind. I say we must not patronise them with cowardice, let’s tell them the truth - you were sold a lie.
Immigrants have not taken your jobs, our schools and colleges failed to give you the skills, hospitals are not crumbling because of health tourists but decades of austerity that ground them down to the bone, you cannot afford a house because both parties failed to build, not because of Mohammed down the road who moved in, and wealth was hoarded in London when it should have been shared across the country.
Blame us, blame Westminster, do not blame Brussels for our own country’s mistakes and do not be angry at us for telling you the truth, be angry at the chancers who sold you a lie ...
Just as I speak plainly to the government this time around, let me also speak to the pposition about some home truths. There is no leftwing justification for Brexit.
Ditching workers’ rights, social protections and ending environmental cooperation is not progressive.
This is a project about neo-liberal deregulation, it’s Thatcherism on steroids pushed by her modern-day disciples.
Leaving the EU will not free us from the injustices of global capitalism, it will make us subordinate to Trump’s US.
Socialism confined to one country will not work, whether you like it or not, the world we live in is global, we can only fix the rigged system if we cooperate across border lines.
The party of Keir Hardie has always been international. We must not let down our young supporters by failing to stand with them at the biggest issue of our lives.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,719
Hove
*Man drowning*

Corbyn: "I've been very clear I do not want this man to drown."
People; "Great, then do something about it."
Corbyn: "I've been very clear I do not want this man to drown."
People: "Dude, he's drowning like right now. Do something."
Corbyn: "I am doing something, I am being very clear that I do not want this man to drown."
People: "Mate, I've got the coastguard on the phone, can you talk to them?"
Corbyn: "I will only talk to them if they rule out this man drowning."
People: "They're trying to stop it happening, just talk to them!"
Corbyn: "Their refusal to rule it out means I have no confidence in the Coastguard."
People: "He's disappearing below the waves, you're holding a lifebelt, just f**king throw it!"
Corbyn: "I've already been very clear I do not want this man to drown."
People: "Then throw the lifebelt!"
Corbyn: "I willabide by the decision of my party but throwing the belt is not off the table."
People: "..."
Corbynites: "Brilliant master strategy again, Jeremy! Playing 8D chess all at the same time. I think we need a Twitterstorm about how great you are!"
People: "..."
Corbyn: "I sense that some of you still have confidence in the coastguard, I demand another show of no confidence."
People: "Too late, he's dead."
Corbyn: "Meh, not my fault. I demanded it be ruled out."

Man: I've been drowning for 2 bloody years, why have you left until now to ask Corbyn to save me!!???
 


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Sep 1, 2017
17,517
Deepest, darkest Sussex
[TWEET]1085875382140715008[/TWEET]
 






Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
49,983
Goldstone
He's not in no.10, he's not leading the government, his party doesn't have a majority in the house, they are not setting the Brexit agenda, policy etc. But your rage is directed at him, I've not seen any of your posts directed at the real architects of this mess. Could you be any more partisan?
To be fair there are plenty of comments on here against the government already. Some of us aren't sticking up for the government, but are choosing to add balance by looking at the actions of the opposition.
 



Paying the bills

Latest Discussions

Paying the bills

Paying the bills

Paying the bills

Albion and Premier League latest from Sky Sports


Top
Link Here