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[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?

  • Total voters
    1,081








Hamilton

Hamilton

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
12,461
Brighton
Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Just watching Tim Martin of 'Spoons on TV, Goodness me: the guy doesn't even understand the questions. Is this the face of Brexit? Can't they find anyone else from the business community who can string a sentence together in favour of Brexit? He actually looks forward to a flood of cheap imports on 'Day 1' without quite grasping

a) the impact on the value of sterling
b) the job losses
c) that fact that no deals could possibly be set up by then (if ever) with new trade partners

Bloody hell, your heart sinks.....................
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Maybe J D Weatherspoon will ultimately be proved right and Tim Martin will "never amount to anything in business."
 




Hamilton

Hamilton

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
12,461
Brighton
dingodan said:
Wow.

If we stay in the EU, we can choose the number of migrants we want to allow in from EU countries then, right?

We can fish as much as we want in our own waters, right?

We can do trade deals with another nations, right?

If I decide to let you run my life and make decisions for me, does that then mean that it's me who has the power? Since I made that decision all by my sovereign self? No it means I had the power and gave it away.
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You are missing the point of sovereign decisions. Our parliament made the decision that certain agreements are best negotiated together within the EU.

There's no 'wow' in that. It's a really simple concept. A bunch of like-minded countries, with similar vested interests get together a barter out on agreements.

You're intelligent. You get that. Don't be obtuse around this. We really don't have the time do we?
 






Baldseagull

Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
10,957
Crawley
pastafarian said:
As you know, being followed through by May and recently confirmed by Corbyn the will of the people was to leave THE Customs Union

Both of them havnt pulled it out of a hat,
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I know that is how some people have interpreted the leave vote, but not everyone agrees, the will of the people over this issue, is a badly educated guess, I am not saying the guess is incorrect, but it is a guess, not a solid mandate.
 






dingodan

dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
Hamilton said:
No it would not. The question was not "Should every political, economic, social, environmental or legal decision that affects the UK be made in parliament?" That's a different question. If parliament decides that it is in the interests of the UK for certain decisions to be made elsewhere, then that is a sovereign decision.

We are not about to give up our seat on the UN security council just because decisions made in the UN are not made by parliamentarians in the UK are we? I know that is a whole different kettle of fish, but it shows how interconnected the world is. No country is an island, ironically.
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Yes, but it's a sovereign decision to no longer be sovereign. People don't just want a sovereign parliament for this decision, they want a sovereign parliament in perpetuity. A sovereign decision to cede sovereignty, in any respect, is not defensible as respecting or embodying the principle of sovereignty.

You are trying to argue that how the decision was taken is honoring of the principle of sovereignty, while at the same time ignoring what the decision was - to cede sovereignty. That is some impressive mental gymnastics you are capable of.

Yes the U.N. is a different kettle of fish. Again good mental gymnastics! The U.N. doesn't pass laws, and we are not subject to the laws which the U.N. doesn't pass. It's a forum, not a government. If only the EU operated like that, we'd still be members.
 


dingodan

dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
Baldseagull said:
So if we did it Swiss style, would that suit you? Their parliament votes on bits of EU law if they want to incorporate them or not, or is any law that exists somewhere else first or whose origins are not British, not allowed?
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When we leave the EU, we can still adopt any EU laws which they make and we consider sensible, what would be stopping us? If they make a good law, let's pass it through our parliament and adopt it too.

This isn't about where a law comes from, it's about under whose mandate a law is passed (our parliament) and under whose jurisdiction it is enforced (our courts).
 


dingodan

dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
clapham_gull said:
I think it's reasonable to point out that some countries outside of the EU will stipulate the UK must allow immigration from their country as part of any deal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-deal-diplomat-warning-yk-sinha-a8073516.html

I'm spoken to 2 Indian neighbours who voted out for this very reason.
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Great, let them put their figures on the table and it can be worked out whether it's agreeable or not.

We already allow a great deal of immigration from India, nobody has suggested stopping it. They might try to leverage more as part of a deal, and that may be acceptable depending on the terms.

The issue was always open boarders and no control, nobody is against immigration from India, or frankly anywhere, it's uncontrolled and uncontrollable immigration which was at issue.
 






pastafarian

pastafarian

Well-known member
Sep 4, 2011
11,902
Sussex
The Clamp said:
Shut up you mess.
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Another excellent piece of not ignoring by you

Out of interest,remainers have been crawling out the woodwork from all directions this morning.
I can see that the publication by your own side (EU) can be traumatic considering it’s a withdrawal document, and any last hopes that somehow this would just go away must have really shattered your out of touch community, but crumbs they are angry.
Do you think you should all meet up for a hug?
How long you going to stick with “Brexit wont happen”? Until the end? go on, i love a laugh
 


dingodan

dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
clapham_gull said:
I think a lot of people are though and bizarrely thought that leaving the EU would stop immigration from outside the EU.
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Maybe you've heard that somewhere, I haven't.

Even if we accept that there are some people who wanted a lot less immigration in general as a result of Brexit, why did they feel that way? We had decades of successful multiculturalism and one of the most diverse immigrant populations in the world before EU open borders. When things changed to open borders (and when new countries joined) we lost any control over numbers, that's when things changed, that's when a lot of cheap labor arrived, that's when large numbers came, at the same time we created a massive welfare system and made that open to these huge numbers of immigrants too, and a combination of these things created a lot of resentment. It should never have happened, we should have managed immigration levels from the start, we would never have had the divisions we see in the country today, but we weren't allowed to manage immigration levels, the EU doesn't allow it.
 




Hamilton

Hamilton

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
12,461
Brighton
dingodan said:
Yes, but it's a sovereign decision to no longer be sovereign. People don't just want a sovereign parliament for this decision, they want a sovereign parliament in perpetuity. A sovereign decision to cede sovereignty, in any respect, is not defensible as respecting or embodying the principle of sovereignty.

You are trying to argue that how the decision was taken is honoring of the principle of sovereignty, while at the same time ignoring what the decision was - to cede sovereignty. That is some impressive mental gymnastics you are capable of.

Yes the U.N. is a different kettle of fish. Again good mental gymnastics! The U.N. doesn't pass laws, and we are not subject to the laws which the U.N. doesn't pass. It's a forum, not a government. If only the EU operated like that, we'd still be members.
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Now you are just tying yourself up in knots there. You can’t take a sovereign decision not to be sovereign. Sovereignty was ceded in certain areas, but ultimate sovereignty was retained.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 




The Clamp

The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
24,521
West is BEST
pastafarian said:
Another excellent piece of not ignoring by you

Out of interest,remainers have been crawling out the woodwork from all directions this morning.
I can see that the publication by your own side (EU) can be traumatic considering it’s a withdrawal document, and any last hopes that somehow this would just go away must have really shattered your out of touch community, but crumbs they are angry.
Do you think you should all meet up for a hug?
How long you going to stick with “Brexit wont happen”? Until the end? go on, i love a laugh
Click to expand...

We've been over the ignore issue three times now, there shan't be a fourth.
I don't have much to say to you except to thank you for the laughs today, you have acted like an absolute head-case and been owned by everyone from an ex member of our Majesty's Armed Services to occasional posters. I must admit to having loved every insane moment of it. Don't go changing. Well, maybe change your porn habits, they are quite sick.

Layaz Playaz. Peace X

IMG_2925.PNG
 


dingodan

dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
Hamilton said:
Now you are just tying yourself up in knots there. You can’t take a sovereign decision not to be sovereign. Sovereignty was ceded in certain areas, but ultimate sovereignty was retained.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I'm saying that your argument, which was basically, "It was a sovereign decision, I thought you liked those?", was spurious, since I obviously don't like sovereign decisions to cede sovereignty. But that's precisely because I like sovereign decisions, it's just that I like them so much, I'd like to see them happen in all areas and in the future too.
 




pb21

pb21

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2010
6,311
dingodan said:
Yes, but it's a sovereign decision to no longer be sovereign. People don't just want a sovereign parliament for this decision, they want a sovereign parliament in perpetuity. A sovereign decision to cede sovereignty, in any respect, is not defensible as respecting or embodying the principle of sovereignty.

You are trying to argue that how the decision was taken is honoring of the principle of sovereignty, while at the same time ignoring what the decision was - to cede sovereignty. That is some impressive mental gymnastics you are capable of.

Yes the U.N. is a different kettle of fish. Again good mental gymnastics! The U.N. doesn't pass laws, and we are not subject to the laws which the U.N. doesn't pass. It's a forum, not a government. If only the EU operated like that, we'd still be members.
Click to expand...

Ultimately we wont be any more sovereign post Brexit whatever the deal. You are either a sovereign state capable of deciding your own laws etc or not. We have always been in position to choose what laws we implement. We have never had any laws forced on us; we have just been choosing to implement EU legislation in return for the benefits that entails.

Its clever by Brexiteers to suggest otherwise. 'We have got our country back'. No, we always had it.
 


K

knocky1

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2010
12,968
dingodan said:
I'm saying that your argument, which was basically, "It was a sovereign decision, I thought you liked those?", was spurious, since I obviously don't like sovereign decisions to cede sovereignty. But that's precisely because I like sovereign decisions, it's just that I like them so much, I'd like to see them happen in all areas and in the future too.
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Are you Donald Trump's speech writer?
 


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