[Politics] Brexit

JC Footy Genius · Jun 15, 2018

bashlsdir said:
Most definitely. I know one thing, democracy will be well and truly broken if we don't leave the EU fully. There will be a lot of angry people out there. As if the general public need any more reasons not to trust politicians, this will be the icing on the cake.

I'm disgusted with the Remainer politicians, ex-politicians, millionaires, billionaires who have tried and are still trying to disrupt this process. I'm pissed off with the constant negativity, doom and gloom forecasts. This country needs something new, Brexit would offer that.

How do we move on, if we don't actually leave at the end of all this, I don't know. I know one thing those who voted Leave would have been well and truly screwed.

Very true, many leavers are having their long-held suspicions confirmed by the insults and utter contempt from some sections of the remain camp for people who dared hold a different view for entirely legitimate reasons. All the point scoring and petty squabbling aside not enacting the referendum vote would be catastrophic for our democracy.

JC Footy Genius · Jun 15, 2018

Berty23 said:
If I am buying a car and we don't strike a deal then I walk away and retain the status quo. This is not like that is it? Walking away is leaving everything and we don't have the infrastructure in place to do it. The problem is that people believed that no deal is better than a bad deal. Well no deal = status quo is, no deal and be unable to function is not. This is why no deal was never a viable option which is why the EU hold the Stronger negotiating hand.

If you were stranded in the middle of the desert and you needed water or you died and someone offered you a bottle for 5,000 quid then that is very expensive and arguably a bad deal but if it kept you alive then it is undoubtedly better than no deal. We are in a similar situation. Here and all the negotiators know this.

If you enter negotiations not willing to walk away you have already lost. Your view is we can never leave then.. under any circumstances. How on earth did it come to pass that people in this country, a major democratic, western, economic ,military power believed the UK cannot prosper as an independent nation state lilke so many other nations around the world.

Berty23 · Jun 15, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
If you enter negotiations not willing to walk away you have already lost. Your view is we can never leave then.. under any circumstances. How on earth did it come to pass that people in this country, a major democratic, western, economic ,military power believed the UK cannot prosper as an independent nation state lilke so many other nations around the world.

No it isn't. We can't set it up in 9 months. This is why Dominic Cummings who led vote leave was so angry about triggering article 50 before being prepared. Undoing 40-50 years in 9 months is simply impossible.

JC Footy Genius · Jun 15, 2018

Berty23 said:
No it isn't. We can't set it up in 9 months. This is why Dominic Cummings who led vote leave was so angry about triggering article 50 before being prepared. Undoing 40-50 years in 9 months is simply impossible.

You are now talking about the process, not the principles. Is not being prepared to walk away from a negotiation a sensible stance? Why can't the UK thrive and prosper as an Independent nation state like numerous other nations with less democratic, economic , military, clout/authority?

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 15, 2018

Berty23 said:
If I am buying a car and we don't strike a deal then I walk away and retain the status quo. This is not like that is it? Walking away is leaving everything and we don't have the infrastructure in place to do it. The problem is that people believed that no deal is better than a bad deal. Well no deal = status quo is, no deal and be unable to function is not. This is why no deal was never a viable option which is why the EU hold the Stronger negotiating hand.

If you were stranded in the middle of the desert and you needed water or you died and someone offered you a bottle for 5,000 quid then that is very expensive and arguably a bad deal but if it kept you alive then it is undoubtedly better than no deal. We are in a similar situation. Here and all the negotiators know this.

And every single nation and trading block out there, from the US to Aus to Peru, knows Britain will be utterly desperate to sign a deal of some sort. Owned by the EU, owned by everyone else. Not a great position to be in is it?

WATFORD zero · Jun 15, 2018

bashlsdir said:
Most definitely. I know one thing, democracy will be well and truly broken if we don't leave the EU fully. There will be a lot of angry people out there. As if the general public need any more reasons not to trust politicians, this will be the icing on the cake.

I'm disgusted with the Remainer politicians, ex politicians, millionaires, billionaires who have tried and are still trying to disrupt this process. I'm pissed off with the constant negativity, doom and gloom forecasts. This country needs something new, Brexit would offer that.

How do we move on, if we don't actually leave at the end of all this, I don't know. I know one thing those who voted Leave would have been well and truly screwed.

Obviously Theresa May hasn't done what you want, so can you explain at which points you would have done things differently?

(Saying 'just get on with it' or 'no deal' without explaining how you would implement it is simply proof that you don't understand what you are talking about).

So the floor is yours - where were the major points you would have done things differently?

JC Footy Genius · Jun 15, 2018

Could be worse, unstable German government on the brink of collapse looking to appease a rampant anti-immigration member of their coalition.

pastafarian · Jun 15, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
maybe just admit a no deal outcome is possible

Of course leaving on a “no withdrawal deal” is “possible”, Article 50 says it is, its ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Its not probable though, as they need us more than we need them etc etc. Some people seem to forget we have no powers to force the EU to sit back down at the table if withdrawal talks break down.
Even if withdrawal talks collapsed and we left the EU with no withdrawal deal the option of negotiating a FTA as a third country still exists, as it does with any third country and the EU. It would be a far more complicated affair though with no withdrawal agreement as opposed to with a withdrawal agreement.
There are multiple different ways and options this whole thing could technically possibly still weave its path through. Burying your head and pretending there are not seems a bit daft, but these views tend to come from the blinkered only one outcome brigade of “brexit wont happen”.
People stopped taking them seriously ages ago.

Two Professors · Jun 15, 2018

Eid Mubarak to one and all.Hope peace breaks out soon,but then I'm an optimist.

Garry Nelson's teacher · Jun 15, 2018

"as they need us more than we need them" followed by "Burying your head and pretending" is just to good to miss pointing out as a wonderful juxtaposition.

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 15, 2018

bashlsdir said:
Most definitely. I know one thing, democracy will be well and truly broken if we don't leave the EU fully. There will be a lot of angry people out there. As if the general public need any more reasons not to trust politicians, this will be the icing on the cake.

I'm disgusted with the Remainer politicians, ex politicians, millionaires, billionaires who have tried and are still trying to disrupt this process. I'm pissed off with the constant negativity, doom and gloom forecasts. This country needs something new, Brexit would offer that.

How do we move on, if we don't actually leave at the end of all this, I don't know. I know one thing those who voted Leave would have been well and truly screwed.

The people you are criticizing are try to save the UK. The UK wants the very best deal Brexit deal possible. You seem to forget the EU has the very same objective. These two aims are mutually exclusive, there can only be one winner. So you either leave on crippling WTO terms to desperately take any deal on offer or the EU wins out. Some, beyond pensioners, little Englanders and other assorted headbangers, see a hell of a lot more sense in the third way.

I know who I see as the true patriots and sadly it isn’t you.

vegster · Jun 15, 2018

bashlsdir said:
Most definitely. I know one thing, democracy will be well and truly broken if we don't leave the EU fully. There will be a lot of angry people out there. As if the general public need any more reasons not to trust politicians, this will be the icing on the cake.

I'm disgusted with the Remainer politicians, ex politicians, millionaires, billionaires who have tried and are still trying to disrupt this process. I'm pissed off with the constant negativity, doom and gloom forecasts. This country needs something new, Brexit would offer that.

How do we move on, if we don't actually leave at the end of all this, I don't know. I know one thing those who voted Leave would have been well and truly screwed.

So you never noticed the Brexit politicians, Millionaires and Billionaires who used their wealth and influence to get gullible voters to vote for a pig in a poke ? Who had no idea of the intricacies or damage of exiting the last 40 odd years of trading agreements with our nearest trading partners ? So, the country needed something new ? Brexit DOES not offer that, we have to maintain EU standards of production and manufacture in order to carry on trading with our nearest trading partners.

We will be encouraged to work harder to produce the same products but obviously they will have to be at a lower price in order to " Compete " in a competitive marketplace where we have no preferred or equal status. You can fully expect wages to be depressed, stagnant or cut in order to compete on price so get used to ever more minimum wage or gig economy jobs. Mind you, our glorious brexiteer leaders will have moved their cash, businesses and even themselves out to where the trading environment is far more rosy. We are all screwed, those that can bail out will survive.

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 15, 2018

vegster said:
So you never noticed the Brexit politicians, Millionaires and Billionaires who used their wealth and influence to get gullible voters to vote for a pig in a poke ? Who had no idea of the intricacies or damage of exiting the last 40 odd years of trading agreements with our nearest trading partners ? So, the country needed something new ? Brexit DOES not offer that, we have to maintain EU standards of production and manufacture in order to carry on trading with our nearest trading partners.

We will be encouraged to work harder to produce the same products but obviously they will have to be at a lower price in order to " Compete " in a competitive marketplace where we have no preferred or equal status. You can fully expect wages to be depressed, stagnant or cut in order to compete on price so get used to ever more minimum wage or gig economy jobs. Mind you, our glorious brexiteer leaders will have moved their cash, businesses and even themselves out to where the trading environment is far more rosy. We are all screwed, those that can bail out will survive.

And as the EU will obviously look after their own (as I would hope Britain does*), possibly pay a tariff to sell to the EU ie British goods and services will cost more.

* reality will be that the Tories and their cronies will be looked after, but few others.

JC Footy Genius · Jun 15, 2018

Numerous plastic socialists who sided with/were fooled by Gideon and Goldmann Sachs still parroting the corporate big business line I see. :angel:

WATFORD zero · Jun 15, 2018

pastafarian said:
Of course leaving on a “no withdrawal deal” is “possible”, Article 50 says it is, its ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Its not probable though, as they need us more than we need them etc etc. Some people seem to forget we have no powers to force the EU to sit back down at the table if withdrawal talks break down.
Even if withdrawal talks collapsed and we left the EU with no withdrawal deal the option of negotiating a FTA as a third country still exists, as it does with any third country and the EU. It would be a far more complicated affair though with no withdrawal agreement as opposed to with a withdrawal agreement.
There are multiple different ways and options this whole thing could technically possibly still weave its path through. Burying your head and pretending there are not seems a bit daft, but these views tend to come from the blinkered only one outcome brigade of “brexit wont happen”.
People stopped taking them seriously ages ago.

Still In denial I see. (You do know we only have 9 months)

Even JCFG has given up on that one

Ernest · Jun 15, 2018

Tory PERVERTS Chope and Davies both members of the head banging BREXIT ERG gang of swivel EYED loons

The Clamp · Jun 15, 2018

No country remains powerful and great forever. All decline eventually. It is a shame it is happening on our watch and tragic that we have sleepwalked/lied our way out of standing. I don't blame the Leave voters particularly, they were a vulnerable section of the population, which was exploited to get them to to DC's bidding and resolve his power struggle (or so he thought).

The blame now lies with the likes of Theresa "The Razor" May who knows Brexit is the worst thing for the UK and willingly lets it happen. That's shameful. Leave voters were just gullible. The facilitators of our downfall, The Tories, Corbyn et al should be bloody hanged.

astralavi · Jun 15, 2018

The Clamp said:
No country remains powerful and great forever. All decline eventually. It is a shame it is happening on our watch and tragic that we have sleepwalked/lied our way out of standing. I don't blame the Leave voters particularly, they were a vulnerable section of the population, which was exploited to get them to to DC's bidding and resolve his power struggle (or so he thought).

The blame now lies with the likes of Theresa "The Razor" May who knows Brexit is the worst thing for the UK and willingly lets it happen. That's shameful. Leave voters were just gullible. The facilitators of our downfall, The Tories, Corbyn et al should be bloody hanged.

Yes, vulnerable, it is a shame - but is it willful subordination to ideological exploitation? (I'm sure Owen Jones talked about this somewhere)

The Clamp · Jun 15, 2018

astralavi said:
Yes, vulnerable, it is a shame - but is it willful subordination to ideological exploitation? (I'm sure Owen Jones talked about this somewhere)

The psychology of the Leave voter is fascinating.

Lincoln Imp · Jun 15, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
Sections of the leave vote have been frustrated at being left behind economically and/or continually ignored on specific issues like immigration. Giving the political and wider establishment a kick in the goolies was to good an opportunity to miss. The eventual outrun is unknown but voting for the same old is a known .. the people near and at the bottom stay put and mass immigration continues.

Surely this is what many of us on this side of the argument have been saying for months, while those on yours have argued that the vast majority of Leave voters were forcused on Brexit-specific issues such as customs unions, judicial sovereignty and the rest. Indeed, I recall Pasta claiming that every Leave voter of his acquaintance voted according to such lofty considerations.

Hardly a single soul, according to this narrative, voted simply because they wanted to give the elite a whack. Nothing to do with Europe. Last year we spent a weekend in Barnsley and our host, a sober Barnsley born-and-bred 70-year-old, explained that wanting to give the far-away elite two fingers was exactly the mood of that hard-pressed town on referendum day. If they were given another chance to do the same to Westminster, or even the county council, the result would have been the same. This was decried as rubbish by Brexiteers - including, I think, you - because I hadn't spoken to everyone in Barnsley.

It's an important point though, because if what you say about this in your post above is correct then the fairest reflection of British public opinion - taking into account that virtually half the voters voted for no Brexit at all and many of those who voted Leave did so simply because they were frustrated (your word) with their lot - would appear to be the mildest form of departure. Norway perhaps, or perhaps even milder than that.

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