[Politics] Brexit

LlcoolJ said:

Why would anyone need to foil something that everyone with an ounce of sense knew was going to be a massive disaster anyway? And I'm deluded?

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Are you deluded? - short answer is yes you are.

Are you being deliberately dense? Maybe I should give you rhe benefit of the doubt, but I don't really see why I should. I'll try and explain it to you.

Britain voted to eave the EU. I assume you accept this as a fact?

A vast majority of MPs, members of the Lords, and senior civil servants are avidly in favour of the EU, and while the government is trying to carry out the process of Brexit, pretty much the whole political community of Westminster are doing their best to sabotage every step the government take, in the hope of de-railing the Brexit process, overturning the result of the referendum and remaining in the EU. That too is a fact

That is what the Lords are trying to do - reverse/ignore the referendum and stay in the EU.
That is what the Lib Dems and most of the PLP, plus the SNP and the Greens are trying to do.
That is what that Gina Miller woman was trying to do.
If you can't see that, I can only assume you can't manage to take your Euro-tinted glasses off. We who voted leave did not make a mistake - we wanted to leave the EU and are still determined to hold the government to its commitment to do so. That the government is making heavy weather of it is not the fault of leave voters - it is down to wealthy and influential remainers who don't want Brexit to happen at all, good deal, bad deal, or no deal at all.

So it's either your Euro-tinted specs then, or sorry you really are dense.

The Clamp said:

I sometimes ponder if some of the really ardent Brexiteers on here actually voted remain but are narcissistic and so when remain lost they pretended they voted leave because they cannot stand being seen to be on the losing side. Just some behaviour that flags up some suspect behaviour.

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Yeah ok, lets go with your conspiracy theory, the leavers who wanted to leave before the referendum are really secret remainers because according to you they are showing the traits of a remainer......... that of being narcissistic and cant stand being on the losing side.

Jesus wept,

LlcoolJ said:

Why would anyone need to foil something that everyone with an ounce of sense knew was going to be a massive disaster anyway? And I'm deluded? [emoji23]

The panicked blathering of leave voters who now are seeing what they actually voted for would be hilarious if it wasn't for the fact that this actually is the disaster everyone told you it would be.

You really trusted idiots like May, Davis, Fox etc to deliver your version of what Brexit might look like? Like millions of other people, all with a different idea of what it would be. What could possibly go wrong?

But it's ok. Now you have conspiracy theories to fall back on to justify the terrible mistake that you know you made. Shame on all of you.

I'm out of this thread as I keep promising myself not to get involved but then alcohol...... I'm as reliable as a Boris bus promise unfortunately. [emoji182]

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You might believe that taking back control of our borders and returning more sovereign law making powers back to Westminster from Brussels is a disaster, but plenty will always disagree with you. Takes some screwed up thinking to believe a nation in control of its own affairs is wrong let alone disastrous.
Have a look in the mirror on your way out.

WATFORD zero said:

I think you are getting mixed up between International Trade Negotiations and Whist.

Whist is the one where the other player can't see your cards.

International Trade Negotiations is where both sides know absolutely everything about the other side. (I say Negotiations, Narrative would probably be more accurate in this case).

Hope this helps

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The upcoming white paper will lay out our position on the “future relationship” section of negotiations. If the EU already know what this is, why are people like you moaning furiously non stop that we havnt published and shown our hand yet, why don’t you or anyone else just tell us whats in it if its an already widely known narrative.

JC Footy Genius said:

EU migration and it's effects (while living in sussex)

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You may say that, You may very well say that. However I can recall a series of articles/reports prior to the 2005 General Election in Her Majesty's Daily Torygraph. (aka The Daily Telegraph) As you may recall immigration was a principle feature of the 2005 General Election and Michael 'Something of the night' Howard etc. These articles/reports were done by Lord Snooty himself (aka former editor of The Daily Telegraph Charles Moore) In his reports Mr Moore reported from the front-line of multi cultural hell holes that had been subjugated to the political correctness gone completely mad that is mass uncontrolled immigration across the country that was obviously all part of secret plot between The EU and Tony Blair, particularly Muslim immigration from the former British Empire that may have occurred under Eden, Macmillan, Heath and Thatcher etc - you get the picture.

Anyway, one of Mr Moore's reports was from a place that, frankly, is about as bad as it gets. The sort of place that had a Home Office accredited refugee centre that closes, only for the EU A8 succession to happen straight afterwards. The sort of place where an unarmed gangster gets shot dead by the police in his bed at 5am. The sort of place that has a pub that the police have to attend twice on the evening of Friday 23rd December 2005 in lieu of 2 separate, unconnected stabbings on the same night in the same premises. A place that by various indicators such as property ownership and car ownership, or lack of it, is officially 'deprived'. The sort of place that has festival with various ethnic communities attending in an attempt to 'celebrate' this mad diversity. The sort of place that has Scots in doorways drinking cans of Kestrel. I'm talking the mean, badlands that are South Central St.Leonard's.

In his report, Mr Moore risked life and limb walking from Warrior Square seafront, along the eastern side of Normans Road (Little Baghdad) up London Road and saw for himself the political correctness gone mad. He spoke to locals (There's too many immigrants, There's too many Polski Skleps etc) Fortunately for Mr Moore he didn't walk up the western half of Norman's Road (Little Portobello Road) and reach Mercatoria and the utter insanity of the Tyre place, The Horse and Groom Pub and East Sussex Islamic Association aka Hastings Mosque all cohabiting next to each other. (I used to be a regular - at the pub, not the Mosque, though Mr Abu from The Tandoori Ghor on the seafront is a bigwig in there, so it's obviously really nice.)

Between 2004-2009 I lived a stones throw away from this political correctness gone mad, deprived hell hole that is South Central St. Leonard's. But, despite - living with my Czech ex-girlfriend in this hell between 2005-2008, despite all the Polski Skleps, Muslim men in the street talking Muslim, Afro Barbers, stolen goods being sold in the car park behind the Old England pub, being served alcohol whilst intoxicated at Spar on Kings Road as the brown staff talk to each other in foreign, the children's play parks in Gensing Gardens, and by Warrior Square station being full of Roma gypsy families all day, Hungarian number plated cars lining Pevensey Road, some Ukraninan bloke who entered the UK on a false Estonian passport running a marriage scam business of getting eastern Europeans from Hastings to marry Africans who's visas had expired living 2 streets away from me and the utter, utter insanity of standing at Warrior Square station in the morning getting the train north to work and having to look at the other platform and the Eastern Europeans waiting for the Ashford International train to take them to Ham Street and Appledore, where they'll alight to plow and mow and reap and sow the farms of the Garden of England, and having Polish mothers at my GP's waiting room - I survived.

Along with the fact that all my family are from the East Midlands living in even bigger multi-cultural, political correctness gone mad hell-holes like Leicester and Derby and somehow coping with it too, even when I've been there, you're right - what the hell do I know about immigration living in Sussex.

(Incidentally I secretly fancied the Russian woman from Vladivostok who ran Bar Blue on St.Leonard's seafront back then. Not the Russian woman from Brighton who took it over afterwards though - she was weird.)

JC Footy Genius said:

Btw have we all got our flags out ready for the next match?

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Indeed

JC Footy Genius said:

I keep mentioning the democratic point because it is important. As for the logic of voting leave. Anyone who didn't want to see the UK sink even further into the ever closer union quicksand subsumed into a superstate (we both agree this is the destination) logically would vote leave. People concerned about the rate of immigration would also have a logical reason to increase our control on 50% ish of it. Some who were fed up of being continually ignored or left behind would also logically not be siding with the Tory/Labour political, European and global establishment, Bankers, big business vested interests etc.

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Anyone who did not want to see us get ever closer to the EU would have had the chance to say so at the referendum that is required by UK law before any treaty change would be agreed to, so not logical to get out if that was the only issue. Many of the people concerned about the rate of immigration were deliberately led to conflate assylum seekers with EU migrants, misled as to the effect on the countries finances, and the power we already have to refuse entry on security grounds. The EU has done more towards regeneration of deprived areas of the UK than UK government has, you are a mug if you think that the UK government will do better than the EU on this score.
Stick to your will of the people argument, it is the only one you have with any legitimacy.

Baldseagull said:

Anyone who did not want to see us get ever closer to the EU would have had the chance to say so at the referendum that is required by UK law before any treaty change would be agreed to, so not logical to get out if that was the only issue. Many of the people concerned about the rate of immigration were deliberately led to conflate assylum seekers with EU migrants, misled as to the effect on the countries finances, and the power we already have to refuse entry on security grounds. The EU has done more towards regeneration of deprived areas of the UK than UK government has, you are a mug if you think that the UK government will do better than the EU on this score.
Stick to your will of the people argument, it is the only one you have with any legitimacy.

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Will of the people is only has credibility if Eng, Scot, Wal and NI all voted for Brexit with at least 60 / 40.

A marginal win on the back of heavy grooming of old people on from the right wing press and lies on the side of the bus holds no weight.

If we go ahead with just this, expect a divided country for a generation and probably a fractured UK as well

nicko31 said:

Will of the people is only has credibility if Eng, Scot, Wal and NI all voted for Brexit with at least 60 / 40.

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Why ? Who says this ? Why stop at national boundaries ? Why not say a result is only credible if every county in the UK has voted in favour with at least an 80/20 split ? There wasn't a lot of noise from the remain camp about credibility until after their shock defeat. It just sounds like trying to change the goal posts now.

Oh - by the way, using your rules we wouldn't have stayed in the EEC in 1975.

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned:- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...w-pollsters-helped-hedge-funds-beat-the-crash

So everyone's favourite man of the people, in it for the betterment of the everyday Joe, may have been so duplicitous and helping his chums make a ton of money on the very night of his biggest glory. Tosser.

I reckon the EU should get creative here. They could do something like create an EU membership for people. Something akin to a passport. We could then have dual nationality. I wonder how many people who voted leave would opt for an EU passport it meant they avoided long queues at airports and had rights to access medical treatment, cheap mobile phone roaming and the rest while they were abroad.

It would be epic trolling.

Westdene Seagull said:

Why ? Who says this ? Why stop at national boundaries ? Why not say a result is only credible if every county in the UK has voted in favour with at least an 80/20 split ? There wasn't a lot of noise from the remain camp about credibility until after their shock defeat. It just sounds like trying to change the goal posts now.

Oh - by the way, using your rules we wouldn't have stayed in the EEC in 1975.

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80 / 20 don't be silly. 60/40 is sufficient

Berty23 said:

I reckon the EU should get creative here. They could do something like create an EU membership for people. Something akin to a passport. We could then have dual nationality. I wonder how many people who voted leave would opt for an EU passport it meant they avoided long queues at airports and had rights to access medical treatment, cheap mobile phone roaming and the rest while they were abroad.

It would be epic trolling.

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Not a problem for this leaver - just as long as those taking up EU 'nationality' pay the membership fees among themselves. That means if every one that voted stay took up the option they would have to pay £530. Any takers ?

nicko31 said:

80 / 20 don't be silly. 60/40 is sufficient

View attachment 98029

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Ah more mis-information !!!

So your argument is that each individual country in the UK should have voted 60/40 to leave for it to be valid. Using that test we would have left the EEC in 1975 !

Westdene Seagull said:

Not a problem for this leaver - just as those taking up EU 'nationality' pay the membership fees among themselves. That means if every one that voted stay took up the option they would have to pay £530. Any takers ?

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How on earth did you come up with that figure? Did you include the rebate? Did you remove the 100,000 plus jobs that we are now told by leavers were only here because of EU bankrolled airbus? If it means my wife is allowed access to her cancer drugs then suits me.

Berty23 said:

How on earth did you come up with that figure? Did you include the rebate? Did you remove the 100,000 plus jobs that we are now told by leavers were only here because of EU bankrolled airbus? If it means my wife is allowed access to her cancer drugs then suits me.

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From here - https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Our net contribution is around £8.6bn ( so after rebate ) - I divided £8.5bn by the 16m who voted stay. I'll admit I rounded a bit and I assumed every remain voter would take up the offer.

Westdene Seagull said:

From here - https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Our net contribution is around £8.6bn ( so after rebate ) - I divided £8.5bn by the 16m who voted stay. I'll admit I rounded a bit and I assumed every remain voter would take up the offer.

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So it didn't take into account all of the benefits to the country like the supposed EU run airbus then. Cheers, I thought it was a nonsense figure and you confirmed it. As long as those not paying have to pay for all the 50 or so new agencies and pay the benefits of those losing jobs and reduced revenue in taxes. Seems fair.

Berty23 said:

I reckon the EU should get creative here. They could do something like create an EU membership for people. Something akin to a passport. We could then have dual nationality. I wonder how many people who voted leave would opt for an EU passport it meant they avoided long queues at airports and had rights to access medical treatment, cheap mobile phone roaming and the rest while they were abroad.

It would be epic trolling.

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If there are queues that means they simply haven't employed enough people, like my sister in law who had to wait an hour and a half to get through passport checking at newhaven after getting off the ferry. It makes no difference if we are in or out there will always be queues, that's life.

bashlsdir said:

If there are queues that means they simply haven't employed enough people, like my sister in law who had to wait an hour and a half to get through passport checking at newhaven after getting off the ferry. It makes no difference if we are in or out there will always be queues, that's life.

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But, but we have to take back control of our borders. What? You mean we have borders and customs?

I really really hope this will stick. He needs to be charged and locked up.

https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1011164506523947008

[tweet]1011164506523947008[/tweet]

[tweet]1011223799830851584[/tweet]

https://twitter.com/abarden/status/1011223799830851584

Anyone on Twitter read Carole Cadwalladr who writes for the Observer and Guardian, who had does loads of investigative journalism on the whole sorry mess.