[Politics] Brexit

Simster · Dec 18, 2018

Plooks said:
I don't think it is ok, I never said that. FPTP should be abolished and multiple optioned referendums should be AV. But if we do use AV here we NEED to change FPTP as well. I would be happy with that. But don't just pick the system that gives you the best result for you in each scenario.

A second referendum on this subject is completely different from a general election or EU election for the reasons I've outlined. The General/EU elections are actually very similar in what they are trying to achieve, and yet they have different voting systems. Oddly enough, you've not mentioned the unfairness of it all ONCE.

If you genuinely believe your last sentence here, then the solution is to remove one of the leave options from the referendum, not stick them both on to split the vote. That is a moronic suggestion.

Baldseagull · Dec 18, 2018

Triggaaar said:
May's deal is pretty much like being in the single market. Regardless, May's deal is not like Canada's deal.

By 'many Brexit supporters' I assume you mean 'a lot less than half our voters', and about none of our MPs.

Really? Which leave supporting politicians are claiming we'll have £350m a week? Regardless, this discussion is about lies before the referendum, in order to influence the vote. Both sides did it.

Mays deal excludes the possibility of Single Market membership, Mays deal is pretty thin on the final trading relationship, it is nearly all about what happens whilst we try and get there, which I will admit may well be a lifetime, until magic borders exist, or Ireland is united. But when/if we do, I think it will look a lot more like Canada than Norway.

By many Brexit supporters, I mean most of the ERG lead by Mogg, 50 or so MP's I believe, have said this is a viable route to take, and is preferable to Mays deal.

Bo Jo stands by that claim, also James Cleverly MP on a debate last week on C4 stood by it.

Westdene Seagull · Dec 18, 2018

Plooks said:
Nope. If AV is not good enough for a general election why is it good enough for a referendum? If you don't think it should be used at general elections then how can you support it for this? Ohhhh because you think you will lose.

I'd answer your question but [MENTION=232]Simster[/MENTION] has already posted something far better than I could. I assume you don't agree with how we vote MEPs in either then ?

Kinky Gerbil · Dec 18, 2018

No one believes the Govermnet that upping no deal planning is enough.

It’s already far to late to get prepared.

EU certainly won’t.

Triggaaar · Dec 18, 2018

Plooks said:
No AV though. Biggest vote share wins.

Yep, biggest vote share wins, obviously. Poll options as follows:

* Leave with no deal
* Leave with May's deal
* Remain and apologise to EU for messing them about
* Remain and ask EU to apologise for not offering us a good deal
* Remain and have an extra bank holiday named 'nearly independence day'
* Remain and get a free Christmas turkey for each household
* Remain and get TV license fee paid for by bankers

Triggaaar · Dec 18, 2018

Baldseagull said:
By many Brexit supporters, I mean most of the ERG lead by Mogg, 50 or so MP's I believe, have said this is a viable route to take, and is preferable to Mays deal.

So 50 out of 650. That's obviously not going to get through is it.

Bo Jo stands by that claim, also James Cleverly MP on a debate last week on C4 stood by it.

Seriously? ****ing idiots. Anyway, that's besides the point. Both sides lied to us. If everyone had believed the lies, they'd have voted remain, as people can't afford to lose £4,300.

ManOfSussex · Dec 18, 2018

Baldseagull said:
By many Brexit supporters, I mean most of the ERG lead by Mogg, 50 or so MP's I believe, have said this is a viable route to take, and is preferable to Mays deal.

It's higher than that. Not an exact science in these 3 groupings, but the broad numbers in the camps as they stand are broken down here by John Rentoul - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/edit

Gwylan · Dec 18, 2018

I don't think this has been posted before but, even it has, it's worth a read. It's a speech given by Ivan Rogers, UK's former ambassador to the EU, the guy who knows more about the inner workings of Brussels than anybody in the country.

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-

It's a brilliant speech, that lays into Remainers and Leavers, Tories and Labour alike. But most of all, it exposes as complete idiots all those people who are calling for 'no deal' thinking that it would be OK.

Interestingly, he also points out that the trade agreements to follow will be even more complicated.

Basically, he thinks we're totally screwed - not necessarily through Brexit itself, but through our complete lack of preparation and our unseemingly haste to rush through the negotiations

Triggaaar · Dec 18, 2018

Blue3 said:
Norway remember is resource rich population poor they still had massive oil and gas reserves and unlike the UK who sold all the oil and gas rights away they kept there's and invested 1% into a national investment fund which now worth trillions and is being used to fund new start up buissness if they are using new technologies, huge building program building roads bridges tunnels rail links to connect what is a very mountainous country they thought about the future it gave them this huge buffer

So? Our economy is still bigger than theirs.

Sadley we did not then and we are not now

As you say, they're a resource rich country, we are not, so they've had a surplus of cash to invest, while we have a large population to support.

Ernest · Dec 18, 2018

Kinky Gerbils said:
No one believes the Govermnet that upping no deal planning is enough.

It’s already far to late to get prepared.

EU certainly won’t.

Well seeing as they are now taking 2 weeks off as well till the New Year, less than 2 months is hardly going to change anything in the way of preparing

Two Professors · Dec 18, 2018

GrizzlingGammon said:
Learn the difference between your and you're. It might help us understand what the **** you are trying to say

Awright Dave?Have another spliff :smokin:

nicko31 · Dec 18, 2018

Kinky Gerbils said:
No one believes the Govermnet that upping no deal planning is enough.

It’s already far to late to get prepared.

EU certainly won’t.

Think people underestimate the potential litigation from business toward the government. Nissan for starters....

Blue Valkyrie · Dec 18, 2018

https://twitter.com/PeterKGeoghegan/status/1075033056908595201?s=19

GrizzlingGammon · Dec 18, 2018

Tubby-McFat-Fuc said:
When your argument has failed, bring in the grammar police.

Because I used, your instead of you're, (when if you wanted to go one further you would have said "you are" which would have been the correct term) you felt you had to post. WOW! I can not wait for your 6th post! What a

You insulted someone for using no punctuation. I pointed out to your errors.

ManOfSussex · Dec 18, 2018

the Cabinet discussion on what plan B might be is probably frozen until the meaningful vote actually take places.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-cabinet-steps-up-planning-for-no-deal/

Mtoto · Dec 18, 2018

Triggaaar said:
Just because we're not a big economy compared to the US or the EU, we're still bigger than the likes of Norway, so for the Remain camp to suggest we'd have a much worse deal is ridiculous.

What? May's deal, which we don't want as it's not good enough, is already better than the deal the remain camp used for their forecast. The remain camp lied. Even the government's own Treasury Committee said the government shouldn't be making the false claim that households would be £4,300 worse off.

Why do you think it's ok to call out the Leave campaign on their lie about having £350m spare, but not call out the Remain camp on their lie of how much money leaving would cost each family?

I think the way the Treasury model was used was an example of the hopelessly poor and lazy Remain campaign as a whole, but it was ultimately based on a forecast (for 2030, I think?), the accuracy of which remains to be seen. The bus slogan was not merely a blatant, deliberate falsehood, since it ignored the rebate. It was also a multi-layered deception designed to cover up the simpleton thinking behind the so-called economic case for Brexit (eg. "send" the EU, suggesting nothing in return).

Mtoto · Dec 18, 2018

Triggaaar said:
May's deal is pretty much like being in the single market. Regardless, May's deal is not like Canada's deal.

By 'many Brexit supporters' I assume you mean 'a lot less than half our voters', and about none of our MPs.

Really? Which leave supporting politicians are claiming we'll have £350m a week? Regardless, this discussion is about lies before the referendum, in order to influence the vote. Both sides did it.

Only if shoving a pillow up your jumper is pretty much like being pregnant.

hans kraay fan club · Dec 18, 2018

Mtoto said:
(eg. "send" the EU, suggesting nothing in return).

The language was carefully chosen. In that instance 'send'. The other slogan suggested 'the EU TAKES £m, let's give it to the NHS instead'

Gwylan · Dec 18, 2018

nicko31 said:
Think people underestimate the potential litigation from business toward the government. Nissan for starters....

Litigation? On what grounds?

WATFORD zero · Dec 18, 2018

Brexit: Cabinet 'ramps up' no-deal planning

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46600850

But this time we really really mean it :lolol:

Surely with 100 days to go, and with the amount of information freely available, it can only be morons and WUM who still believe 'no deal' is a viable option ?

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[Politics] Brexit

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