[Politics] Brexit

Hamilton · Mar 1, 2018

dingodan said:
I'm saying that your argument, which was basically, "It was a sovereign decision, I thought you liked those?", was spurious, since I obviously don't like sovereign decisions to cede sovereignty. But that's precisely because I like sovereign decisions, it's just that I like them so much, I'd like to see them happen in all areas and in the future too.

What you are saying is that every single decision that affects the UK needs to be made by parliamentarians, no matter what.

It’s a very insular standpoint. You are against joining any trading blocks. It’s us (the UK) and them (everyone else.)

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dingodan · Mar 1, 2018

Hamilton said:
What you are saying is that every single decision that affects the UK needs to be made by parliamentarians, no matter what.

It’s a very insular standpoint. You are against joining any trading blocks. It’s us (the UK) and them (everyone else.)

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That is exactly what I am saying, and it's not insular at all, it's the self determination which people fight and die for.

It's only "us and them" as you are describing it if everyone else is in some kind of political union except for us, which isn't the case. There are plenty of independent nations, I'd like us to join them once again.

ManOfSussex · Mar 1, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
That has nothing to do with the EU.

I know that.

dingodan · Mar 1, 2018

pb21 said:
Ultimately we wont be any more sovereign post Brexit whatever the deal. You are either a sovereign state capable of deciding your own laws etc or not. We have always been in position to choose what laws we implement. We have never had any laws forced on us; we have just been choosing to implement EU legislation in return for the benefits that entails.

Its clever by Brexiteers to suggest otherwise. 'We have got our country back'. No, we always had it.

That is turning reality on it's head. While members of the EU we are subject to it's laws, whether we voted for them, whether we like them, or not. We have certainly not "always been in position to choose what laws we implement.", EU law is automatically our law and supersedes our law.

You are kind of right, we have chosen to be subject to EU law in this way, and now we have chosen to not be any longer.

pb21 · Mar 1, 2018

dingodan said:
EU law is automatically our law and supersedes our law.

Only by our choosing to be, or remain in, in the EU in the first instance.

We have been making that choice, as a fully sovereign nation for the past 30+ years, with full knowledge of what that entails, i.e. partly by incorporating EU legislation into UK law. As such we have been the ultimate arbiter of what laws we do, or do not have; which will be no different post Brexit.

The Clamp · Mar 1, 2018

dingodan said:
That is turning reality on it's head. While members of the EU we are subject to it's laws, whether we voted for them, whether we like them, or not. We have certainly not "always been in position to choose what laws we implement.", EU law is automatically our law and supersedes our law.

You are kind of right, we have chosen to be subject to EU law in this way, and now we have chosen to not be any longer.

Which EU laws that we have been subject to don't you like?

dingodan · Mar 1, 2018

The Clamp said:
Which EU laws that we have been subject to don't you like?

It's a matter of principle.

dingodan · Mar 1, 2018

pb21 said:
Only by our choosing to be, or remain in, in the EU in the first instance.

We have been making that choice, as a fully sovereign nation for the past 30+ years, with full knowledge of what that entails, i.e. partly by incorporating EU legislation into UK law. As such we have been the ultimate arbiter of what laws we do, or do not have; which will be no different post Brexit.

Saying that we will accept, without condition, all laws made by the EU, as is required by membership, means we are not the ultimate arbiter of what laws we do or do not have.

We haven't been incorporating EU legislation into UK law, EU legislation is the law of the land in the UK, it doesn't need "incorporating".

nicko31 · Mar 1, 2018

The Clamp said:
Which EU laws that we have been subject to don't you like?

A helping hand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCEEWblEN1Y

The Clamp · Mar 1, 2018

dingodan said:
It's a matter of principle.

Ou dear.

pb21 · Mar 1, 2018

dingodan said:
Saying that we will accept, without condition, all laws made by the EU, as is required by membership, means we are not the ultimate arbiter of what laws we do or do not have.

We haven't been incorporating EU legislation into UK law, EU legislation is the law of the land in the UK, it doesn't need "incorporating".

You have said it yourself "we will accept", i.e. we can, if we wish, not accept; which we are now doing.

We have always had the ultimate power, as a fully sovereign nation, to choose what laws we have. Fundamentally we wouldn't be able to choose to leave the EU if we weren't the ultimate arbiter.

Pretty pink fairy · Mar 1, 2018

meanwhile Tony Blair is still flapping his gums in a desperate last chance saloon urging the EU to reform their immigration policy in the hope that the LEAVE VOTERS MIGHT CHANGE THEIR MINDS,............. yeah DREAM ON TONY :lolol:

regards
DR

Pretty pink fairy · Mar 1, 2018

The Clamp said:
Which EU laws that we have been subject to don't you like?

THE MAIN ONE IS GIVING THEM THE OBSCENE AMMOUNT OF MONEY THEY DEMAND , THAT'S GOING TO STOP THOUGH :thumbsup:

regards
DR

Hamilton · Mar 1, 2018

dingodan said:
That is exactly what I am saying, and it's not insular at all, it's the self determination which people fight and die for.

It's only "us and them" as you are describing it if everyone else is in some kind of political union except for us, which isn't the case. There are plenty of independent nations, I'd like us to join them once again.

Well 27 of those nations will already be in one trading block.

l can't see India, China, the US and Canada etc putting greater value in trading with the UK than with access to the much more powerful EU. Ah well. It least we got our country back.

Pretty pink fairy · Mar 1, 2018

Hamilton said:
Well 27 of those nations will already be in one trading block.

l can't see India, China, the US and Canada etc putting greater value in trading with the UK than with access to the much more powerful EU. Ah well. It least we got our country back.

when are you leaving by the way ?
regards
DR

The Clamp · Mar 1, 2018

Pretty pink fairy said:
THE MAIN ONE IS GIVING THEM THE OBSCENE AMMOUNT OF MONEY THEY DEMAND , THAT'S GOING TO STOP THOUGH
regards
DR

It may stop. Along with all the funding to the poorest parts of the UK. And nobody in their right mind would expect that to be replaced by a Tory government.

BigGully · Mar 1, 2018

The Clamp said:
It may stop. Along with all the funding to the poorest parts of the UK. And nobody in their right mind would expect that to be replaced by a Tory government.

Just because the current elected UK government doesnt tally with your own political views, you can't go looking around the world for a political bloc/country that does and then try to impose that on the rest of us back here in the UK.

Let the UK distribute its money on its own terms to its own people and if they fail then we can vote for someone else, this fixation that only Brussels can deliver appropriate decisions whilst the UK should be considered mostly hopeless, seems a bit odd to me.

Titanic · Mar 1, 2018

BigGully said:
Just because the current elected UK government doesnt tally with your own political views, you can't go looking around the world for a political bloc/country that does and then try to impose that on the rest of us back here in the UK.

Let the UK distribute its money on its own terms to its own people and if they fail then we can vote for someone else, this fixation that only Brussels can deliver appropriate decisions whilst the UK should be considered mostly hopeless, is a bit odd.

Yeah... but... those evil Tories... splutter.... I... I... I... corwumph!

Garry Nelson's teacher · Mar 1, 2018

One (OK not the only) argument against the Corbyn 'let's stay in the Customs Union' position is that it will prevent us from seeking exciting and potentially lucrative deals with 3rd party (non EU) countries. This is because we'd be bound by the EU's Common External Tariff which would penalise such trade.

But just how much of an impediment would this be? After all, if the tariff barrier is huge then, yes, we would find it hard to seek out such trade deals that Boris and Liam Fox tell us are out there waiting to happen.

This small extract is, in this context, a bit of an eye-opener:

The average applied tariff for the EU – and therefore for the UK – is barely 2.8%.

Full article link is here. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/01/customs-union-brexit-trade-turkey

And yes it is from the Guardian and yes it is written by Nick Clegg's missus - who just happens to be a former EU trade negotiator.

Pretty pink fairy · Mar 1, 2018

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
One (OK not the only) argument against the Corbyn 'let's stay in the Customs Union' position is that it will prevent us from seeking exciting and potentially lucrative deals with 3rd party (non EU) countries. This is because we'd be bound by the EU's Common External Tariff which would penalise such trade.

But just how much of an impediment would this be? After all, if the tariff barrier is huge then, yes, we would find it hard to seek out such trade deals that Boris and Liam Fox tell us are out there waiting to happen.

This small extract is, in this context, a bit of an eye-opener:

The average applied tariff for the EU – and therefore for the UK – is barely 2.8%.

Full article link is here. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/01/customs-union-brexit-trade-turkey

And yes it is from the Guardian and yes it is written by Nick Clegg's missus - who just happens to be a former EU trade negotiator.

Nick clegg :lolol:

regards
DR

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