[Politics] Brexit

The Clamp · Dec 13, 2017

JC Footy Genius said:
I still think self-preservation will outway the simmering tensions over Brexit if there's one thing the Tories are good at it's putting themselves first. Even if it does turn nasty I can't see enough Tories voting to facilitate a possible/likely Corbyn government.

As I have said before extremist loons on the specfic issue of not accepting the referendum result ,this would apply to any party including the Tories if they had gone down that road. Utter madness and extremely dangerous disregarding such a vote.

You mob keep saying it's "dangerous" to disregard the vote? What will happen? You didn't seem to do much about getting out of the EU before Wavey Davey held a sham referendum in a bid to stay in power, accidentally giving brief decision making power to the ill informed public (on both sides). So please, serious question: So why is it dangerous?

ManOfSussex · Dec 13, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
The settled status is back in the news. I find it bizarre that the UK has never asked people to register that they are living in the UK. How many other countries is this the case? Is this common?

I know registration is done in Belgium and Austria, to name but two.

The reason it was never done here is cost and Home Office administration and infrastructure limitations. Easier to blame it on The EU though. The Worker Registration Scheme for the A8 countries was a joke - £50 for a photocopied piece of paper from an office in Sheffield. (Or gratis in the case of my ex-girlfriend, as the cheque I wrote for hers in 2005 was never cashed. Quality bit of A4 paper though. Colour too.)

Thunder Bolt · Dec 13, 2017

Blimey, even the Express is turning.

https://twitter.com/danielmaier/status/940726125118083074

[tweet]940726125118083074[/tweet]

Trufflehound · Dec 13, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
The settled status is back in the news. I find it bizarre that the UK has never asked people to register that they are living in the UK. How many other countries is this the case? Is this common?

ManOfSussex said:
I know registration is done in Belgium and Austria, to name but two.

The reason it was never done here is cost and Home Office administration and infrastructure limitations. Easier to blame it on The EU though. The Worker Registration Scheme for the A8 countries was a joke - £50 for a photocopied piece of paper from an office in Sheffield. (Or gratis in the case of my ex-girlfriend, as the cheque I wrote for hers in 2005 was never cashed. Quality bit of A4 paper though. Colour too.)

I used to think registration was bad and the 'right to disappear' in the UK was a good thing, but then you hear stories about EU citizens who've lived in the UK for decades having to fill out 84-page forms just to apply for residency, not even nationality.

Thanks to registration and my local town hall here having all our relevant details on file, in two separate applications, Mrs T and I now both have Dutch nationality, on the showing of one piece of paper between us (Mrs T's Dutch language diploma), and without either of us filling out any form whatsoever.

I know which system I prefer.

beorhthelm · Dec 13, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
The settled status is back in the news. I find it bizarre that the UK has never asked people to register that they are living in the UK. How many other countries is this the case? Is this common?

we've covered this previously - the the UK we have no mechanism to register people, we are free to move parish to parish without any administration apart from putting your name on the electoral role. one of the tenets of freedom of movement is you do not impose rules on other EU citizens. so if there's no citizenship or residency registration for British citizens, there cant be any for EU citizens either. things are different in other countries.

daveinprague · Dec 13, 2017

Supposed to register here. I did with my first flat, but 2nd time was nightmare, and was there in the Space Pigs offices for so long, I almost lost the will to live and left without getting it. Never bothered since.

ManOfSussex · Dec 13, 2017

beorhthelm said:
we've covered this previously - the the UK we have no mechanism to register people, we are free to move parish to parish without any administration apart from putting your name on the electoral role. one of the tenets of freedom of movement is you do not impose rules on other EU citizens. so if there's no citizenship or residency registration for British citizens, there cant be any for EU citizens either. things are different in other countries.

Why are all EU citizens required to register residency in Austria, but Austrians aren't?

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 13, 2017

ManOfSussex said:
I know registration is done in Belgium and Austria, to name but two.

Trufflehound said:
I used to think registration was bad and the 'right to disappear' in the UK was a good thing, but then you hear stories about EU citizens who've lived in the UK for decades having to fill out 84-page forms just to apply for residency, not even nationality.

Thanks to registration and my local town hall here having all our relevant details on file, in two separate applications, Mrs T and I now both have Dutch nationality, on the showing of one piece of paper between us (Mrs T's Dutch language diploma), and without either of us filling out any form whatsoever.

I know which system I prefer.

Germany is the same, so this is 4.

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 13, 2017

beorhthelm said:
we've covered this previously - the the UK we have no mechanism to register people, we are free to move parish to parish without any administration apart from putting your name on the electoral role. one of the tenets of freedom of movement is you do not impose rules on other EU citizens. so if there's no citizenship or residency registration for British citizens, there cant be any for EU citizens either. things are different in other countries.

I understand all of this. I just find it bizarre.

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 13, 2017

ManOfSussex said:
Why are all EU citizens required to register residency in Austria, but Austrians aren't?

I think what beorhthelm is saying is that if an Austrian moves to Britain they follow Brit rules which means they do not need to register in Britain.....as no one has to. But, an Austrian, or non-Austrian EU Citizen, living in Austria will follow Austrian rules and have to register.

ManOfSussex · Dec 13, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
Germany is the same, so this is 4.

Same with removal of EU citizens who have no work or prospect of work - Germany & Belgium, to name but two, remove people, The UK with it's lack of resources doesn't.

Hotchilidog · Dec 13, 2017

ManOfSussex said:
Same with removal of EU citizens who have no work or prospect of work - Germany & Belgium, to name but two, remove people, The UK with it's lack of resources doesn't.

So bizarrely it looks like the rest of the EU implement the Freedom of Movement rules in a way that many Brexiteers would like, it's just that Britain chooses not too. Maybe some alingment on that issue would have prevented all this kerfuffle.

ManOfSussex · Dec 13, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
I think what beorhthelm is saying is that if an Austrian moves to Britain they follow Brit rules which means they do not need to register in Britain.....as no one has to. But, an Austrian, or non-Austrian EU Citizen, living in Austria will follow Austrian rules and have to register.

Austrian citizens don't have to, according to an Austrian I know. You wont get anywhere near the Austrian benefit system either unless you've been working full time for 6 months too apparently. No child benefit loopholes there.

ManOfSussex · Dec 13, 2017

Hotchilidog said:
So bizarrely it looks like the rest of the EU implement the Freedom of Movement rules in a way that many Brexiteers would like, it's just that Britain chooses not too. Maybe some alingment on that issue would have prevented all this kerfuffle.

There's lots of things and restrictions that can be done, including access to benefits. We've even got the helping hand of being an island and not being in Schengen making embarkation checks easier had we bothered to implement the resources to make them.

Hotchilidog · Dec 13, 2017

ManOfSussex said:
There's lots of things and restrictions that can be done, including access to benefits. We've even got the helping hand of being an island and not being in Schengen making embarkation checks easier had we bothered to implement the resources to make them.

I thought so, and this is where I think we will move towards. It would be possible to agree to EU rules whilst tightening up our regulations which would address some of the concerns of Brexit voters. This would be our key to maintaining the benefits of the single maket and customs union. By enforcing all of the FoM criteria we would actually deliver the restrictions that many Brexiteers, whose main concern is immigration, want.

We'll have to wait for it, but I suspect this where Labour will eventually end up.

beorhthelm · Dec 13, 2017

Hotchilidog said:
So bizarrely it looks like the rest of the EU implement the Freedom of Movement rules in a way that many Brexiteers would like, it's just that Britain chooses not too. Maybe some alingment on that issue would have prevented all this kerfuffle.

yes, we could have changed/introduced laws on citizenship, residency, benefit eligibility, healthcare access and other areas. not politically digestible though. this goes all the way back to the accession of the east european nations into the EU, when the government of the day went with temporary fixes (aforementioned Worker Registration?), instead of properly addressing the legislative gaps.

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 13, 2017

ManOfSussex said:
Austrian citizens don't have to, according to an Austrian I know. You wont get anywhere near the Austrian benefit system either unless you've been working full time for 6 months too apparently. No child benefit loopholes there.

Okay. Was just going by what another poster said about Austria.

ManOfSussex · Dec 13, 2017

Hotchilidog said:
I thought so, and this is where I think we will move towards. It would be possible to agree to EU rules whilst tightening up our regulations which would address some of the concerns of Brexit voters. This would be our key to maintaining the benefits of the single maket and customs union. By enforcing all of the FoM criteria we would actually deliver the restrictions that many Brexiteers, whose main concern is immigration, want.

We'll have to wait for it, but I suspect this where Labour will eventually end up.

It all comes back to the A8 Succession in 2004. Germany and France put in proper and rigorous transitional arrangements. The 13,000 a year figure here was based on them opening up their labour markets and doing what we did - a £50 photocopied piece of paper from a processing office in Sheffield other known as The Home Office Worker Registration Scheme. As I've said before, it just sums up The Home Office that the cheque I wrote for my then girlfriend to get hers was never cashed in 2005. Suffice to say I'm highly cynical as to the Settled Status roll out..........................

nicko31 · Dec 13, 2017

The Tories really know how to bring their rebels on side don't they? Threaten to sue them

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...arliamentary-vote-eu-divorce-deal-tory-rebels

May isn't backing down on the meaningful vote, maybe she thinks she got enough votes tonight. I notice the Tories have brought back the racist whip Anne Marie Morris, suspended for 5 months for using the N...word

Her cronies just don't get it. The fact is a meaningful vote is about process and Parliamentary sovereignty MPs. They call a referendum, claim its validity, and then use Henry VIII powers to push it through.

Yet again, is this what getting our country back is about?

Baldseagull · Dec 13, 2017

beorhthelm said:
we've covered this previously - the the UK we have no mechanism to register people, we are free to move parish to parish without any administration apart from putting your name on the electoral role. one of the tenets of freedom of movement is you do not impose rules on other EU citizens. so if there's no citizenship or residency registration for British citizens, there cant be any for EU citizens either. things are different in other countries.

We can't impose on EU citizens anything that we don't do for citizens of any other country, we can treat them differently to UK citizens, just not worse than say Argentinians.

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