[Politics] Brexit

CHAPPERS · Jan 14, 2019

So I say to Members on all sides of this House – whatever you may have previously concluded – over these next 24 hours, give this deal a second look.

No it is not perfect. And yes it is a compromise.

But when the history books are written, people will look at the decision of this House tomorrow and ask:

Did we deliver on the country’s vote to leave the European Union?

Did we safeguard our economy, our security and our Union?

Or did we let the British people down?

I say we should deliver for the British people and get on with building a brighter future for our country by backing this deal tomorrow.

There it is. The PM warning of a break up of the union in No Deal.

Baldseagull · Jan 14, 2019

dingodan said:
How would you make change in the EU? With a vote? no. Your MEP? no.

Even our Prime Minister (DC) tried to make change. He was laughed out of the room.

Nobody has a meaningful say in the EU except the President and his selected Commissioners.

DC tried to get exemptions for Britain only, if he had tried to get changes in the Union for everyone, he may have had more success, though he would have needed to start those discussions a long while back.

Thunder Bolt · Jan 14, 2019

dingodan said:
I think your suggestion that they are like the National Front is stupid. But that is the argument that will be made, and because it is stupid it will be ignored. & any legitimate concerns about UKIP will fall by the wayside because you made such stupid claims the basis of your argument.

Would leave voters vote for UKIP? I don't know. But angry people who feel betrayed will do funny things.

Nobody expected Brexit. Nobody expected Trump.

Reverse Brexit and this is the risk you are taking, and you will be responsible for what happens next.

Oooh very threatening. Project fear?

Baldseagull · Jan 14, 2019

cunning fergus said:
Wrong, EU Regulations don’t.

If you don’t like GDPR then don lobby your MP, try one your six MEPs.

He or She will tell you that all the EU Parliament does is approve laws......the law makers are the Commission.

They are not elected, but selected.

I meant the EU parliament.

dingodan · Jan 14, 2019

The EU is more democratically elected than our own Parliament.

You don't understand how the EU works.

cunning fergus · Jan 14, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
Who votes for the House of Lords? Who votes for our government ministers? The EU is more democratically elected than our own Parliament.

Two questions.....

1) Who is the law making executive in the U.K.

2) Have they elected by U.K. citizens?

If I answer the questions for the EU (instead of UK) it’s the EU Commission and No.

Massive difference.

A1X · Jan 14, 2019

dingodan said:
UKIP will promise to repeal the European Communities Act. Instant exit from the EU. They will have a sympathetic (and very angry) audience of about 17 million potential voters.

I mean we already know this isn't actually possible and even if they did they'd still need to give formal notice of leaving. When you live in a rules based international order you tend to find you have t

Diablo · Jan 14, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
The EU is more democratically elected than our own Parliament.

That may be but by french,germans,italians,greeks,spaniards etc etc. Why do we want them telling us what to do?

Thunder Bolt · Jan 14, 2019

cunning fergus said:
Two questions.....

1) Who is the law making executive in the U.K.

2) Have they elected by U.K. citizens?

If I answer the questions for the EU (instead of UK) it’s the EU Commission and No.

Massive difference.

The EU President is elected by the EU Parliament (Juncker)
The Council of the European Union then nominates the other 27 members of the Commission - one pre nation, and then get a vote of approval from the European Parliament.

The government is the law making executive but with FPTP voting system they are quite often only representing about 38% of the people.

A1X · Jan 14, 2019

cunning fergus said:
I dont like or agree with any EU Regulations, such the General Data Protection Regulation, the Markets in Financial Instruments Regulation etc. If it ends in an R I don’t like it or agree with it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_(European_Union)

The EU used to “govern” by Directives which had to be transposed by the Govts of member states, this meant Govts and respective Parliaments had authority to implement as they saw fit, in the UK for example we tended to gold plate EU Directives. I wouldn’t agree with them but at least they recognise the authority of member states Govts. EU Regulations are different and since Lisbon Treaty/2008 they are now the principal legislative tool of the EU Commission. EU Regulations go straight on the statute book without approval by the U.K. Govt or Parliament.

In my view the use of Regulations gets to the guts of the Leave campaign missive “take back control” and therefore I (as many others do who voted leave) expect HM Parliament to be supreme in making laws for the UK. In the case of Regulations HM Parliament is subordinate to the EU. This is unacceptable.

In every other organisation you highlight we are members, and not subordinate to another unelected law making executive.

It's interesting, I decided to have a little investigation and the first regulation which I came up to was Regulation 2015/478 which governed imports into the European Union and agreeing a common grounding for safety etc. of the goods in question (i.e. preventing things such as lead paint being used in kids toys). This was passed by the European Parliament, which was elected through PR by the people of Europe.

Tell me again about how this is a terrible idea which we should get rid of it?

The Clamp · Jan 14, 2019

cunning fergus said:
Whilst not condoning violence from either side, as it stands there is a side that won a referendum and a side that lost, overturning that democratic decision like it or not will only exacerbate the rancour that exists between the two sides most active supporters. It is a certainty that if Brexit doesnt happen there will be protests from aggrieved leave supporters and violent confrontation will likely result. Thats not meant to be a threat merely a reasonable prediction.

On a more micro level i can forsee some MPs having police protection, more limited exposure with the public and a general breakdown in the civil tone in politics that has existed in this country since WW2. I think some constituencies will be worse than others and some local political structures for Labour and Tories will collapse in on themselves as the leave/remain position will be unbridgable. Where they dont collapse i think an MPs position on Leave/Remain will become avprinary factor in selection, ensuring that Brexit will continue to be the dominant factor in British politics.

I dont think we will see anything like what is happening in France, but i do think there will be other forms of non violent protest. I can imagine boycotts of the TV licence fee and other taxes. It may only take a couple of million to overwhelm the country’s ability to manage non payment.

I maybe wrong but as it is Brexit or no Brexit this country may not be the same again.

Project fear.

A1X · Jan 14, 2019

cunning fergus said:
1) Who is the law making executive in the U.K.

The Government.

cunning fergus said:
2) Have they elected by U.K. citizens?

No. The UK public voted for the legislature (or at least a part of it), the Executive forms itself out of that but is not directly elected by the public in any way, shape or form. Nobody has ever voted directly for Theresa May to be Prime Minister, for example, bar a small group of Conservative MPs.

Thunder Bolt · Jan 14, 2019

Diablo said:
That may be but by french,germans,italians,greeks,spaniards etc etc. Why do we want them telling us what to do?

Britain has 73 MEPs out of 750, so with 28 different countries contributing, we have a tenth of the vote.

We also have power of veto, which is why we aren't in the euro, because we chose not to join.

Why do you think others tell us what to do? Have you considered that a lot of the legislation is cooperation?

A1X · Jan 14, 2019

[TWEET]1084862002223288320[/TWEET]

The Clamp · Jan 14, 2019

dingodan said:
Both the government and the opposition were elected on a manifesto of delivering Brexit.

To prevent Brexit would be an affront to democracy. Don't pretend to care about democracy. There are two choices here, for MPs to honour democracy and carry out the manifesto promises on which they are elected, or for MPs to do what they (and you) want, in spite of the result of the largest democratic process in the history of this country.

You've made your choice, and it isn't democracy.

No political structure should be upheld if it leads to the suffering of citizens. Be that Facism, communism or democracy. It is not in our best interests and government has a duty to scrap Brexit.

dingodan · Jan 14, 2019

A1X said:
I mean we already know this isn't actually possible and even if they did they'd still need to give formal notice of leaving. When you live in a rules based international order you tend to find you have t

"rules based international order" - is a political term.

Don't confuse the political with the legal.

If a repeal of the ECA is promised by a prospective government, and the poeple vote for it, I don't really see what the EU will be able to do about it.

It would be potentially messy though. Generally having a UKIP government would be unknown territory.

I'd rather we honor the vote and leave now. But if we don't then that might be what happens, and it will be the fault of those people who considered their own views to be more important than our democracy.

cunning fergus · Jan 14, 2019

Baldseagull said:
I meant the EU parliament.

I see.

It’s not an orthodox Parliament though, it’s a second chamber to approve laws made by an unelected executive. It’s like us voting in the Houses of Lords, while the people making the law in the commons and running Govt are unelected by the electorate.

It’s not a fluke this situation either is it?

Very clever, but No, No, No.

dingodan · Jan 14, 2019

The Clamp said:
No political structure should be upheld if it leads to the suffering of citizens. Be that Facism, communism or democracy. It is not in our best interests and government has a duty to scrap Brexit.

The government has a duty to ignore the people.

Democracy should not be upheld.

At least we know where you stand, I admire your honesty, there aren't many people who would admit to thinking like that.

hans kraay fan club · Jan 14, 2019

The Clamp said:
Project fear.

#ProjectThreat

Baldseagull · Jan 14, 2019

dingodan said:
When in this country Parliament can give indications but the Executive has the final say. When in this country Parliment can approve but cannot propose legislation, only the Government can.

Then there will be a comparison.

The Government can and does find ways to block private members bills it does not want to get through, even a minority Government like Mays can do it, ever heard of filibustering?
The EU Parliament can throw out a Commission if it feels the Commission is not functioning correctly.

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