[Politics] Brexit

Pavilionaire · Jul 19, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
Never going to join in the near future,True .. but it's a fact that the EU was and is still pumping billions of Euros into Turkey for the specific reason of them attaining the entry criteria.

It makes sense to have Turkey as an associate, as an ally, to invest in Turkey but taking the EU border into Asian territory is a recipe for disaster, the EU have always recognised this risk and Greece has always been likely to veto the move anyhow.

The Clamp · Jul 19, 2018

Mo Gosfield said:
No. To leave the EU was the will of a majority of the people that voted and thats what counted.
The referendum was a massive political gamble by a PM that put party politics before the interests of the country. Their arrogance defied belief. They were so sure of themselves that they were convinced they could shut up the Eurosceptics in the party once and for all. They were so arrogant, that they didn't stop to consider that some of the British people might just have noticed that every time Mr Cameron returned from Brussels, there was a worse deal on the table. They didn't stop to consider that many of the SME'S in this country had had enough of European beaurocracy and red tape that was strangling them as businesses. The majority of them do all their business within these shores and they are the lifeblood of this country, not the big corporations. They didn't bother to garner public opinion in deprived areas. Why should they? Two old Etonians, part of the club, the Establishment.
They then proceeded to run an appalling campaign, based entirely on scare tactics, which most saw through for the arrogance and shallowness it displayed. They made the job easy for Leave. Instead of having to use facts and figures to back up their case, the Leave campaign concentrated on a few emotive soundbites and it worked.
It wasn't a confidence trick by the Leave campaign. Anyone stupid enough to believe the claims of both sides ( Economic Armageddon on one hand/ vast NHS spending and greatly reduced immigration on the other hand ) is probably not best trusted to sit the right way round on a toilet seat. The politicians were to blame then and they are to blame now. If the most important vote this country has had for decades can be set up and run in such a cavalier, irresponsible and frankly, criminal fashion, then is it no wonder that the inmates who are running the asylum have created an even bigger mess now.

I'm not blaming you wholesale. The lies you were fed proabably felt very believable to a section of society who felt the EU was a bad thing. However I do blame you for not doing a bit of reserach and tryinig to see if you were being lied to and see if we do actually benefit from the EU (we do). Because Leave voters have ensured many, many areas that benefited from the EU never see that kind of help and support ever again. Especially under a Tory government.

JC Footy Genius · Jul 19, 2018

Pavilionaire said:
I've never previously seen any battle bus display an outright lie as big as "£350m a week for the NHS" and I probably never will, such was the staggering gall of the move. Leave realised they could play on people's fears and sell them completely unrealistic dreams, and do it with complete impunity. As the campaign wore on the lies got bigger.

To draw parallels to that campaign and a normal General Election campaign is like comparing Panorama to Lord of The Rings.

You don't remember many General Election campaigns then ....

You only seem to see the lies from one side.

Where are the 500,000 plus more unemployed because of an immediate vote to leave?

The Clamp · Jul 19, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
Never going to join in the near future,True .. but it's a fact that the EU was and is still pumping billions of Euros into Turkey for the specific reason of them attaining the entry criteria.

Good, the country and it's citizens need a change. The EU recognise inclusion, not exclusion is how the world changes.

WATFORD zero · Jul 19, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
Turkey joining may now be a long way down the road but at the time of the referendum, with Cameron in power, the UK stance was to support and assist Turkey joining. Cameron had made many public comments on it for years. Given his enthusiasm for them joining you can't blame voters for considering it during the referendum.

You know it wasn't going to happen, I know it wasn't going to happen,

How could anybody have been stupid enough to believe ..........................

JC Footy Genius · Jul 19, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
So any particular reason for an obviously highly principled man like yourself to make a complete change of position on 'no deal' from

To

So many remainers bigging up a no deal, why aren't you telling them how wrong they are?

ManOfSussex · Jul 19, 2018

The Clamp said:
We knew that but please remember that Leave voters fell for a lot of lies that were specifically directed to appeal to their mentality...

Merkel had previously said the best Turkey could get with The EU was privileged partner status. Turkey first applied to join in 1987 and wont be waiting another 31 years as it isn't interested.

It's joining The EU was deliberately and constantly referenced by both the official Leave campaign and Leave.EU's to play on some peoples subliminal views on Muslims, just like that poster. They knew what they were doing.

vegster · Jul 19, 2018

The Clamp said:
I'm not blaming you wholesale. The lies you were fed proabably felt very believable to a section of society who felt the EU was a bad thing. However I do blame you for not doing a bit of reserach and tryinig to see if you were being lied to and see if we do actually benefit from the EU (we do). Because Leave voters have ensured many, many areas that benefited from the EU never see that kind of help and support ever again. Especially under a Tory government.

Going to be some very puzzled faces in a couple of years when people realise the NHS will still be struggling due to unfilled vacancies, there are still less fish in the sea and most jobs will still be minimum wage but with worse employee working conditions.

The Clamp · Jul 19, 2018

ManOfSussex said:
Merkel had previously said the best Turkey could get with The EU was privileged partner status. Turkey first applied to join in 1987 and wont be waiting another 31 years as it isn't interested.

It's joining The EU was deliberately and constantly referenced by both the official Leave campaign and Leave.EU's to play on some peoples subliminal views on Muslims, just like that poster. They knew what they were doing.

View attachment 98878

That poster was pure propoganda. And it was disgusting. But a lot of leave voters are basic people and that kind of sensationalist lie appeals to them.

Westdene Seagull · Jul 19, 2018

The Clamp said:
see if we do actually benefit from the EU (we do).

Was that not the job of the remain campaign to convey to voters ? Something they spectacularly failed to do.

The Clamp · Jul 19, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
Was that not the job of the remain campaign to convey to voters ? Something they spectacularly failed to do.

They didn't do a great job. That's why I did some research and see how the EU helps us and how it fails us. The help came out on top. That, coupled with the fact I don't mind foreigners steered me towards my, as it turns out, correct Remain vote.

hans kraay fan club · Jul 19, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
Was that not the job of the remain campaign to convey to voters ? Something they spectacularly failed to do.

Absolutely. I doubt you will find anybody of a Remain disposition who thinks otherwise. The Remain campaign was terrible. An absolute shambles.

Pavilionaire · Jul 19, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
You don't remember many General Election campaigns then ....

View attachment 98877

You only seem to see the lies from one side.

Where are the 500,000 plus more unemployed because of an immediate vote to leave?

I remember The Sun headline and story well. It wasn't a lie, just a last ditch, desperate plea to it's readers not to vote Labour. And it wasn't made over a series of 6 weeks but the night before the election after a month of campaigning. A bit pathetic really - and 5 years later The Sun had done a 180 degree u-turn and threw their weight behind Blair against the Tories.

As for the Tories saying taxes go up under Labour - that usually is the case, although that's not a bad thing given taxes are presently too low to sustain a basic level of public services.

Look, as a staunch Remainer (and accountant) my biggest regret is Osborne's desperate late forecasts of economic doom and gloom immediately after the vote, because anyone with a brain knew that the real economic fallout would only happen once we left the EU. This is the idiot that announced out of the blue in 2015 that he was going to abolish Tax Returns by the end of this parliament, i.e. 2020. That also isn't going to happen.

That said, a significant economic downturn following our departure was/is inevitable, he should have presented facts and reason a lot better. I don't think the Remain campaign could have been fought any worse than it was and it still got 48%.

Simster · Jul 19, 2018

Mo Gosfield said:
Anyone stupid enough to believe the claims of both sides ( Economic Armageddon on one hand/ vast NHS spending and greatly reduced immigration on the other hand ) is probably not best trusted to sit the right way round on a toilet seat.

Indeed, which is why we are a parliamentary democracy. We shouldn't be having shoddy referendums purely on the whims of self-interested politicians like CMD. Should the electorate really be expected to know the ins and outs of detailed economic and social policy? That's why we elect MPs - to make those decisions in the best interests of their constituents.

Regardless of what happens with regard to Brexit, the Conservative party deserve decades in the political wilderness for what they've done to this country. It really is absolutely shameful, and to think that the Lib Dems got absolutely decimated in 2010 for daring to barter away their position on something as relatively trivial as student grants.

JC Footy Genius · Jul 19, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
Just like you've held them to account over the Brexit negotiations

Good grief :facepalm:

... they will be accountable at the next general election.

hans kraay fan club · Jul 19, 2018

Pavilionaire said:
Look, as a staunch Remainer (and accountant) my biggest regret is Osborne's desperate late forecasts of economic doom and gloom immediately after the vote, because anyone with a brain knew that the real economic fallout would only happen once we left the EU. This is the idiot that announced out of the blue in 2015 that he was going to abolish Tax Returns by the end of this parliament, i.e. 2020. That also isn't going to happen.

That said, a significant economic downturn following our departure was/is inevitable, he should have presented facts and reason a lot better. I don't think the Remain campaign could have been fought any worse than it was and it still got 48%.

The campaign was terrible. Generally it was pure complacency - they thought it would be easy. They simply misjudged the number of disenfranchised people who would seize the chance to lash out, they misjudged how gullible many people are - thinking of each ridiculous lie "Nobody will fall for that" so not properly countering them, and most of all they misjudged quite how many xenophones and let's be honest about this, racists, are amongst the population.

The Clamp · Jul 19, 2018

hans kraay fan club said:
The campaign was terrible. Generally it was pure complacency - they thought it would be easy. They simply misjudged the number of disenfranchised people who would seize the chance to lash out, they misjudged how gullible many people are - thinking of each ridiculous lie "Nobody will fall for that" so not properly countering them, and most of all they misjudged quite how many xenophones and let's be honest about this, racists, are amongst the population.

This. He unwittingly gave the ignorant the chance to destroy the UK in a cynical bid to win back UKIP votes and silence his backbench. I cannot think in living history that there has been a worse, self inflicted time for the UK.

Garry Nelson's teacher · Jul 19, 2018

hans kraay fan club said:
Absolutely. I doubt you will find anybody of a Remain disposition who thinks otherwise. The Remain campaign was terrible. An absolute shambles.

Yes - Leave won the battle of the campaigns. I kept looking at their line-up; the same faces all the time - Andrea "well I'm a mum" Leadsom, Geisla Stewart, the obnoxious Gove, the shyster Fox, bloody Boris - and I kept thinking, "what a bunch of losers". But somehow the simple messages got through: 'take back control', more money for the NHS, EU immigrants putting a strain on public services, and the trump (Trump?) card: 'project fear'.

I remember getting worried when Remain - in I think the final live televised debate - put up Frances O'Grady from the TUC. Everything she said was sensible but there was just no traction with the audience. The penny dropped: most people didn't want 'sensible'; they wanted simple.

JC Footy Genius · Jul 19, 2018

Pavilionaire said:
I remember The Sun headline and story well. It wasn't a lie, just a last ditch, desperate plea to it's readers not to vote Labour. And it wasn't made over a series of 6 weeks but the night before the election after a month of campaigning. A bit pathetic really - and 5 years later The Sun had done a 180 degree u-turn and threw their weight behind Blair against the Tories.

As for the Tories saying taxes go up under Labour - that usually is the case, although that's not a bad thing given taxes are presently too low to sustain a basic level of public services.

Look, as a staunch Remainer (and accountant) my biggest regret is Osborne's desperate late forecasts of economic doom and gloom immediately after the vote, because anyone with a brain knew that the real economic fallout would only happen once we left the EU. This is the idiot that announced out of the blue in 2015 that he was going to abolish Tax Returns by the end of this parliament, i.e. 2020. That also isn't going to happen.

That said, a significant economic downturn following our departure was/is inevitable, he should have presented facts and reason a lot better. I don't think the Remain campaign could have been fought any worse than it was and it still got 48%.

The point being both sides present their opponents in the worse possible light predicting armageddon exactly the same as the referendum campaign. No one 'knew' what the economic fallout would be as no one exactly 'knew' what deal would or would not be agreed.

Anyone claiming to 'know' was fibbing and the numerous groups predicting outcomes had a shocking track record in predicting anything accurately let alone something like Brexit.

WATFORD zero · Jul 19, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
Good grief ... they will be accountable at the next general election.

So why the change of mind on 'no deal' from 'extended emergency measures' to

JC Footy Genius said:
I have no idea ... not something often heard on this thread

Or have you seen the light and got a new standard answer on anything Brexit related ?

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[Politics] Brexit

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