[Politics] Brexit

dingodan · Jan 24, 2019

Baldseagull said:
An unusually long lasting one, but one that is looking weaker today with a POTUS that seems to be a fan of Putin at the least, and possibly a stooge for him.

Nice non sequitur.

dingodan · Jan 24, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
Neither is the EU Parliament.

The EU has an executive body, a legislative body and a judiciary. It's a government.

Gwylan · Jan 24, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
But the EU does have a president, a foreign minister and a central bank ....... all elements of government. It's aim is to be a government.

The EU doesn't have a president. Or rather, it has three: the president of the European Council (Tusk); the president of the European Commission (Juncker) and the president of the European Parliament (Tajani).

It doesn't really have a foreign minister either, although it does have a high representative (Mogherini). She doesn't set policy though, she's just the focal point for all foreign policy.

dingodan · Jan 24, 2019

Baldseagull said:
You know who makes up the Council though don't you? Even the leaders of the member states that are pro federalisation will be reluctant to push a federalist agenda right now, because of the fuel it gives populists, and there are many governments in the EU now that are very hostile to any further powers being gained by the EU.

It's a one way street. Yes, in the short term there are obstacles. But do you think they rule things out in the long term.

It's one way, it only grows. It never shrinks. It's pretty obvious what the outcome will be. Perhaps not tomorrow, and not the next day. But eventually.

ManOfSussex · Jan 24, 2019

dingodan said:
Yes, that's right. I don't think you are factoring in the fact that if no deal were to happen, everyone, on all sides & without exception, would be working 100% to make things work, and as quickly as possible. There simply isn't the will to demonstrate that at the moment, because it would be considered encouraging to a no deal scenario, and that is considered highly undesirable.

The old 'German car manufacturers' one - Gotcha.

I don't think you are factoring in the fact we'd be entering into a Norwegian arrangement very quickly in a no deal scenario because nothing will be ready here for us to function properly as a country the other side of no deal, anymore than it isn't ready now.

fanseagull · Jan 24, 2019

dingodan said:
Yes, that's right. I don't think you are factoring in the fact that if no deal were to happen, everyone, on all sides & without exception, would be working 100% to make things work, and as quickly as possible. There simply isn't the will to demonstrate that at the moment, because it would be considered encouraging to a no deal scenario, and that is considered highly undesirable.

So everything will be fine in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit! Thank Goodness.... and we'll all be working together in harmony! Brilliant!

lawros left foot · Jan 24, 2019

fanseagull said:
So everything will be fine in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit! Thank Goodness.... and we'll all be working together in harmony! Brilliant!

It’s the Ostrich strategy, bury your head in the sand, and hope for the best.

dingodan · Jan 24, 2019

fanseagull said:
So everything will be fine in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit! Thank Goodness.... and we'll all be working together in harmony! Brilliant!

That's not quite what I said though is it.

"It won't be the insurmountable disaster being claimed" != "Everything will be harmonious and perfect".

That's called a strawman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

fanseagull · Jan 24, 2019

dingodan said:
It's a one way street. Yes, in the short term there are obstacles. But do you think they rule things out in the long term.

It's one way, it only grows. It never shrinks. It's pretty obvious what the outcome will be. Perhaps not tomorrow, and not the next day. But eventually.

Will this cheer up Julia GF, do you think?

fanseagull · Jan 24, 2019

dingodan said:
That's not quite what I said though is it.

"It won't be the insurmountable disaster being claimed" != "Everything will be harmonious and perfect".

That's called a strawman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

So.... we avoid absolutely disaster!

Great, not much of a short/medium term aspiration though, is it?

By the way, I know what a straw man is.....

No one, neither you nor anyone else can know for sure how this will play out; speculation is pointless. Let's just say the signs don't look promising for the near future.... and who knows what will happen in the longer term.

pb21 · Jan 24, 2019

dingodan said:
It's a one way street. Yes, in the short term there are obstacles. But do you think they rule things out in the long term.

It's one way, it only grows. It never shrinks. It's pretty obvious what the outcome will be. Perhaps not tomorrow, and not the next day. But eventually.

Brexiteers on the one hand tell us to get out of the sinking shoddy EU ship now before it drags us down and at the same time, on the other hand, tell us to buckle up as the EU ship is about to take off into space and start firing missiles. :shrug:

A1X · Jan 24, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
Yes, I saw that tweet.

I have been pointing out for several weeks that 90% of our insulin comes from Denmark. There are thousands of insulin dependent people in the UK.

Not least our own Prime Minister.

Also worth remembering 100% of our formula milk comes from Ireland. Not as major as chemotherapy and insulin but some rely on it nonetheless.

Thunder Bolt · Jan 24, 2019

A1X said:
Not least our own Prime Minister.

Also worth remembering 100% of our formula milk comes from Ireland. Not as major as chemotherapy and insulin but some rely on it nonetheless.

Talking of Ireland, Northern Ireland gets all of its electricity from Ireland, as they don't have any generating stations themselves.

Bold Seagull · Jan 24, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Agree with a lot of what you've posted. I'd ask you a question - the well stated aim of the EU is ever closer integration. Where do you see this leading ? Obviously as a leaver I see that as a 'United States of Europe' .... a single fedral state. I really can't see where else it could go ?

There isn't even consensus to become a loose confederation, let alone moving toward a federation. I have no doubt there are those that do see it as a vision, Churchill for one probably coined the term United States of Europe. Where else could it go? Well, clearly as we are demonstrating it could go down the pan if member states reject it and decide to leave. Ultimately, whatever the outcome, we have proved our sovereignty in or out of the EU as we have demonstrated that we can leave at our choosing. We are not trapped or tied indefinitely. I hope we are not leaving just because of a fear of something that is yet to happen.

Kinky Gerbil · Jan 24, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
What a day. Chancellor Phillip Hammond has said a no-deal Brexit would be a "betrayal of the promises that were made" during the 2016 referendum campaign.

But Mr Hammond also said that not leaving the EU "would be seen as a betrayal of that referendum decision".

The People's Vote team have pulled their parliamentary amendment for a Second Referendum because Corbyn hasn't come out and backed it, while Theresa May is sticking to her EU Withdrawal Agreement "Deal" (which isn't a Deal) that got overwhelmingly rejected by the HoC and will be rejected again in 5 days time.

And we have 9 weeks until we leave the EU.

Starting to see people disown the mess.

Kinky Gerbil · Jan 24, 2019

dingodan said:
Yes, that's right. I don't think you are factoring in the fact that if no deal were to happen, everyone, on all sides & without exception, would be working 100% to make things work, and as quickly as possible. There simply isn't the will to demonstrate that at the moment, because it would be considered encouraging to a no deal scenario, and that is considered highly undesirable.

Thats cool, Maybe tweet the worried parent and tell her everyone is working on it, should be fine.

Sure she will be delighted.

Baker lite · Jan 24, 2019

lawros left foot said:
To be honest now, I don’t want a people’s vote, I don’t want no deal, I don’t want Mays deal, Canada+++, Norway plus, article 50 postponed.

I want a politician, any politician, to stand up and say”This has gone from stupidity, to insanity, I would not be doing my job if I didn’t say, bugger the referendum, we cannot leave.
It is an impossibility to make any kind of Brexit as successful for this country as remaining in the EU would be. Some people may not like the truth in this, but there it is, I wouldn’t stand by and watch a single person self -harm, I’m not prepared to watch a whole country self-harm”

I just hope one of them grows some balls, and stands up to the “ It’s the will of the people” lot.

A dictator you mean?

On our way.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

lawros left foot · Jan 24, 2019

Baker lite said:
A dictator you mean?

On our way.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No, we haven’t got one of those ,a politician, any politician, just someone with the balls to stand up and put a stop to this madness.

It will be incredibly detrimental to our country, and someone should have the guts to say bollox to the referendum 17.4 million people got it wrong, we cannot compound that decision, with an exit of any kind from the EU.

cunning fergus · Jan 24, 2019

lawros left foot said:
To be honest now, I don’t want a people’s vote, I don’t want no deal, I don’t want Mays deal, Canada+++, Norway plus, article 50 postponed.

I want a politician, any politician, to stand up and say”This has gone from stupidity, to insanity, I would not be doing my job if I didn’t say, bugger the referendum, we cannot leave.
It is an impossibility to make any kind of Brexit as successful for this country as remaining in the EU would be. Some people may not like the truth in this, but there it is, I wouldn’t stand by and watch a single person self -harm, I’m not prepared to watch a whole country self-harm”

I just hope one of them grows some balls, and stands up to the “ It’s the will of the people” lot.

Let’s accept this happens, turn the dial forward and in 5-10 years the U.K. is in an EU that is federalising around the EZ countries(as we know it is and must). As the EZ represent the majority of countries in EU those outside the EZ are sidelined into accepting laws under majority voting.

The same politician says, as a country we are a fork in the road of our destiny. To continue to access the full benefits of the EU we should join the EZ and take our place in the federal EU, join the euro etc.

Or we turn our back on the EU and make our way outside the EU as an independent country.

Based on what we know now, what would you do?

Fact is this is the future, better to deal with it now.

lawros left foot · Jan 24, 2019

cunning fergus said:
Let’s accept this happens, turn the dial forward and in 5-10 years the U.K. is in an EU that is federalising around the EZ countries(as we know it is and must). As the EZ represent the majority of countries in EU those outside the EZ are sidelined into accepting laws under majority voting.

The same politician says, as a country we are a fork in the road of our destiny. To continue to access the full benefits of the EU we should join the EZ and take our place in the federal EU, join the euro etc.

Or we turn our back on the EU and make our way outside the EU as an independent country.

Based on what we know now, what would you do

Fact is this is the future, better to deal with it now.

How can you say this is fact in the future?

Nobody, including you knows what will happen after 29th March, let alone 5-10 years time.
If we were inside the EU we would still have our vetoes and a voice, outside we have **** all, and we would still be hugely affected by what the EU does.
We have become the successful country we are, because of the EU, not in spite of it.

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