[Politics] Brexit

ManOfSussex · Aug 27, 2018

I read in The Times of London today that 'no deal' planning is being hampered by a shortage of civil servants who are actually skilled at the tasks required and that odious, old Etonian, Conservative and Unionist Rees-Mogg used the words 'have people inspected' when talking about the Irish border. What a ****ty little country we've become that I have the misfortune of being from. It's genuinely embarrassing. We're ****ed. (and I'm not referring to myself in the royal 'we' sense just because I've been binge drinking in Hastings Old Town)

Baldseagull · Aug 27, 2018

Gwylan said:
Well OK, but that's also true for pretty much most countries. Germany and Italy's PMs are not voted by the people either. And Australia seem to swap PMs with great regularity without any input from the electorate.

I don't have a problem with it, but it is daft to use the "President not directly elected by the people" as justification for the accusation that the EU is not a democratic organisation, and not have a problem with UK PM's route to the job.

Lincoln Imp · Aug 27, 2018

Baldseagull said:
I don't have a problem with it, but it is daft to use the "President not directly elected by the people" as justification for the accusation that the EU is not a democratic organisation, and not have a problem with UK PM's route to the job.

Talking of British PMs it's worth considering that two of the last three never led their parties to overall victory in a GE even once. Also, excluding the brief Cameron government of 2015 - 2017 the Tory Party hasn't won a majority in the country for over a quarter of a century. And as Larus correctly pointed out, the last time a traditional Labour Party won an election was more than 40 years ago.

Support for the two main parties seems to be dying, irrespective of the brief flicker of polarisation seen in recent months.

portslade seagull · Aug 27, 2018

Plooks said:
Rees-Mog and his brexit chums are a utter scum. Can't believe anyone agrees with him at all, these are the true "enemies of Britain".

Try looking in the mirror. Corbyn might be looking back

Harry Wilson's tackle · Aug 27, 2018

Gwylan said:
Well OK, but that's also true for pretty much most countries. Germany and Italy's PMs are not voted by the people either. And Australia seem to swap PMs with great regularity without any input from the electorate.

Yes. Complaining that not every person in a position of state-related responsibility is elected by the people is absurd. Baldyseagull didn't get a vote on who would be my head of department in a state funded universty. Boo hoo #deprived.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Aug 27, 2018

Plooks said:
Corbyn is brexit mongering as well!

editited as I misunderstood your post. And....no he isn't. He's procrastinating.

ManOfSussex · Aug 27, 2018

portslade seagull said:
Try looking in the mirror. Corbyn might be looking back

This is the problem - people like you are like the Doumergue's in France in 1930's who were such dribbling, swivel eyed loons about the left and 'God damn Commies' taking power, that the impending disaster (For Brexit read what happened over the border to France in Germany) was overlooked. Another 5 years of austerity and I shudder to think what's going to be left of this country. I'd take 5 years of Corbyn and this country in The EU than 5 minutes of it out under Rees-Mogg and his freakoid ****wits who'd like the world to be like the 1930's and have Doumergue's the other side of the Channel.

Butch Willykins · Aug 27, 2018

ManOfSussex said:
It's genuinely embarrassing.

I’m embarrassed that you are embarrassed.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Aug 27, 2018

Lincoln Imp said:
Talking of British PMs it's worth considering that two of the last three never led their parties to overall victory in a GE even once. Also, excluding the brief Cameron government of 2015 - 2017 the Tory Party hasn't won a majority in the country for over a quarter of a century. And as Larus correctly pointed out, the last time a traditional Labour Party won an election was more than 40 years ago.

Support for the two main parties seems to be dying, irrespective of the brief flicker of polarisation seen in recent months.

Because no 'old labour' or 'old tory' government has been elected for 100 years? I don't think so. Neither party is remotely dead.

Thatcher and Blair, the only stable successes with repeat wins after decades of flip flop governments were both aberrations in their own parties. The **** and file seem to have both swung back to polarized. Neither are dead. They just smell a bit funny.

Anyway, nothing is immutable. Francis Fukuoka wrote 'the end of History' in the 80s. He was wrong. Things change. When they do it is often catestropically (in a mathematical sense). I don't like that, but institutions decay and we have to live with that. In business and science we are supposed to embrace disruptive change. Meanwhile the people who suffer are the plebs. But, no change there, at all, ever.

This thread is almost impossible to not derail yet, like the Medusa, it seems to have an infinite capacity to regenerate. New heads. New dick heads, too :lolol:

ManOfSussex · Aug 27, 2018

Butch Willykins said:
I’m embarrassed that you are embarrassed.

Thank-you very much. As I suspect your have an exiguity in terms of overall perceptiveness of current affairs and the complexities of Brexit, I take your statement above as a great compliment.

Deleted member 22389 · Aug 27, 2018

Chill Out!!

Harry Wilson's tackle · Aug 27, 2018

Baldseagull said:
I don't have a problem with it, but it is daft to use the "President not directly elected by the people" as justification for the accusation that the EU is not a democratic organisation, and not have a problem with UK PM's route to the job.

That is 'whataboutery' ad absurdum. As others have posted (including me) the last thing the UK needs is a presidential election of the PM. Let the parties select their leaders then let us vote.

Nothing wrong with the EU in this respect either.....

The one quibble I have, however, is when a party changes its leader mid term (in an effort to salvage its own arse when things go tits up). I think that if a leader gets a no confidence vote, the party MUST elect a new leader and (if the party of government) MUST offer a general election. The EU should operate equivalently too (the fact that it has so many components means that it is impossible for voters to recall what is going on, which is why the Brits, especially, hate it - even me a so called remainer, when sober...)...

Butch Willykins · Aug 27, 2018

ManOfSussex said:
Thank-you very much. As I suspect your have an exiguity in terms of overall perceptiveness of current affairs and the complexities of Brexit, I take your statement above as a great compliment.

I’ve probably forgotten more than you’ll ever know you utter dimwit.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Aug 27, 2018

Plooks said:
Labour are pro brexit and that is unforgivable.

In effect, yes, and I agree with you.

ManOfSussex · Aug 27, 2018

Butch Willykins said:
I’ve probably forgotten more than you’ll ever know you utter dimwit.

That's the spirit - I'm sure you know best and I don't - Your occasional input on this thread always comes across as so learned. I'm delighted the future of this country is in the hands of, and indeed the throws of the foresight, of you and fellow ideologues.

zefarelly · Aug 27, 2018

Likewise, an opportunity to clean up with a. Massive majority is on a plate for a slightly left centrist fair Democratic Party for normal working people. Just a shame it doesn't exist, at least not until a new Guy Fawkes does the job properly, the monarchy is scrapped and we can start from scratch with some simple system designed AD rather than BC!

Westdene Seagull · Aug 27, 2018

Plooks said:
Labour are pro brexit and that is unforgivable.

Labour are not pro-Brexit - they are at best neutral. But even if they were pro surely representing the 52% is what they should be doing ?

Butch Willykins · Aug 27, 2018

ManOfSussex said:
That's the spirit - I'm sure you know best and I don't - Your occasional input on this thread always comes across as so learned. I'm delighted the future of this country is in the hands of, and indeed the throws of the foresight, of you and fellow ideologues.

Not a bad come back at all. Enjoy your night MoS.

Baldseagull · Aug 27, 2018

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
That is 'whataboutery' ad absurdum. As others have posted (including me) the last thing the UK needs is a presidential election of the PM. Let the parties select their leaders then let us vote.

Nothing wrong with the EU in this respect either.....

The one quibble I have, however, is when a party changes its leader mid term (in an effort to salvage its own arse when things go tits up). I think that if a leader gets a no confidence vote, the party MUST elect a new leader and (if the party of government) MUST offer a general election. The EU should operate equivalently too (the fact that it has so many components means that it is impossible for voters to recall what is going on, which is why the Brits, especially, hate it - even me a so called remainer, when sober...)...

I think it a valid point, when a major claim of the leave campaign was to take back control from unelected bureaucrats and have greater sovereignty, to have a little whataboutery regarding our system.

ManOfSussex · Aug 27, 2018

zefarelly said:
Likewise, an opportunity to clean up with a. Massive majority is on a plate for a slightly left centrist fair Democratic Party for normal working people. Just a shame it doesn't exist, at least not until a new Guy Fawkes does the job properly, the monarchy is scrapped and we can start from scratch with some simple system designed AD rather than BC!

I'm afraid I just can't see us having a new party form in my opinion. The experience of the gang of the 4 puts paid to that, plus if if you're fortunate enough to live in Wales or Scotland now (let alone the joys of Northern Ireland) you have a nationalist, progressive alternative on tap, which appears a damn site more sensible than what Westminster alone offers. It's left or right and take your pick.

In 1993 we had Sir John Major as Prime Minister, John Smith as leader of Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition and Paddy Ashdown as leader of the 3rd largest party. You can slag them off but we had Clarke, Hurd, Brown, Blair on the front benches. The likes of Cash, Corbyn, Salmond were backbench principled, maverick oddballs. 25 years on we so are ****ed as a country.

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