[Politics] Brexit

Baldseagull · Feb 21, 2017

cunning fergus said:
The decision to hold an EU referendum was overwhelmingly backed by Parliament, all political parties had previously offered the UK Electorate one, and with UKIP winning the popular vote in the previous EU election a referendum on our membership was inevitable at some point.

As for suffering the price of Brexit we have been suffering for years, from (say) from the contribution of billions of pounds of tax payers money, surrendering border controls and handing over law making power to a group of unelected technocrats.

Arguably we have not suffered like the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese and Italians. These countries are the bell weathers of the EU's failures. Close your eyes to these much wider problems if you want, however for those who want to save the EU they should hope for a fair Brexit deal with the UK.

The deep structural problems of the EU and EZ need to be dealt with as a priority, whilst Brexit is not a mortal blow to either it could turn into one if the focus of the EU is on punishing a democratic decision by the UK as oppose to sorting out their own more urgent problems.........if they can?

Past performance is not a good indication that they will........

The money we have paid in to the EU has been good value for us, we have not surrendered border controls, and law that we adopt as part of the EU, we are part of creating. I hope Brexit is a fair deal, I believe that it will be, but it won't satisfy the majority of people in the UK, if we ever get to a deal that is.

Lincoln Imp · Feb 21, 2017

cunning fergus said:
On this thread you have given contributors your own views freely, and I am surprised that you are now becoming discriminatory about who you want to engage with.

Why don't we go back to the issue at hand, why is Barnsley's demographic evidence that immigration was not relevant to Barnsley's vote at Brexit?

It was you that referenced the high proportion of white British in your explanation.......maybe I am missing something?

Yes, I am afraid you are missing something. Having referenced the stats, walked the streets, googled the background and spent a day in the company of a thoughtful man who has spent all of his 70+ years involved in the community, I hazarded the view that immigration was not a pressing issue in the town. It wasn't an expert view but perhaps it was an informed one. It attracted a comment from one of your fellow Brexiters that I was deluded, stupid and inexperienced at living in places with a large proportion of what he described as Commonwealth immigrants.

It was simply in response to the implication that Barnsley might well have a large ethnic minority population that I replied that Barnsley, according to the figures, actually has an unusually high proportion of 'White British' residents. This attracted three responses from Brexiters; I had got the figures wrong, I was a dunce and I was indulging in 'fake facts'. I didn't respond in kind and simply quoted my source. One poster apologised, which was unexpected.

Having established (I hope) the fact that immigration is not a pressing issue in Barnsley, we now arrive at the question you ask. "Given that it isn't a problem, what evidence is there that it wasn't a factor in people voting as they did?" I could of course ask you the slightly simpler question of why you think it was a factor. I don't think I can come up with much to answer your question at this very moment. There is the view of my local contact, there is the (slightly sad) truth that people tend not to be greatly exercised by problems in other parts of the country and, on the other side, there is the fact that blistering populist campaigns, drawing as always on a anti-outsider sentiments, are proving successful across much of the world.

I think that what happened in the UK was at heart no different to what is happening in the US, France, Holland and elsewhere. I believe you think it is completely different. There you go.

Lincoln Imp · Feb 21, 2017

pastafarian said:
You are a liar, spreading lies.

Cameron called the referendum to satisfy his own right wingers and neutralise UKIP. His decision, which he made outside cabinet and with reference to few colleagues, was made for the internal convenience of the Conservative Party. (Put me down as another lie-telling liar if it makes you feel warm inside.)

Lincoln Imp · Feb 21, 2017

alfredmizen said:
you missed out the part where 97.9 % are ethnically white , if youd added that detail i wouldnt have posted what i did , i assumed , obviously wrongly , that barnsley would be like other areas of yorkshire , where the population is anything but 97% ethnically white.

It wasn't down to me to add it, it was down to you to check a fact or two before chucking around accusations of stupidity, delusion and lack of experience about living in areas of high Commonwealth immigration. You let yourself down.

GT49er · Feb 21, 2017

Lincoln Imp said:
Cameron called the referendum to satisfy his own right wingers and neutralise UKIP. His decision, which he made outside cabinet and with reference to few colleagues, was made for the internal convenience of the Conservative Party. (Put me down as another lie-telling liar if it makes you feel warm inside.)

...........and then he put the idea to Parliament, who then approved it. A democratically elected Parliament democratically voted in favour of it, in accordance with Parliamentary democracy. That should be enough democracy to satisfy anyone.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whose idea the referendum was, it was held. And Call-me-Dave had cocked up big time on his calculations.

nicko31 · Feb 21, 2017

Lincoln Imp said:
Cameron called the referendum to satisfy his own right wingers and neutralise UKIP. His decision, which he made outside cabinet and with reference to few colleagues, was made for the internal convenience of the Conservative Party. (Put me down as another lie-telling liar if it makes you feel warm inside.)

The Tories hadn't won an election for 23 years, Cameron would do anything to kowtow to Murdoch and Dacre. Classic party first, country second.

GT49er · Feb 21, 2017

nicko31 said:
The Tories hadn't won an election for 23 years, Cameron would do anything to kowtow to Murdoch and Dacre. Classic party first, country second.

Errm.....they'd been in power (in the nominal conservative dominated coalition) for the last five!

beorhthelm · Feb 21, 2017

nicko31 said:
The Tories hadn't won an election for 23 years, Cameron would do anything to kowtow to Murdoch and Dacre. Classic party first, country second.

he assumed the majority would comfortably back remain. silly old public didn't agree with that view. first they vote in conservatives then they vote out of europe, maybe time to rethink this whole democracy lark as it keeps giving the "wrong" results.

Lincoln Imp · Feb 21, 2017

GT49er said:
...........and then he put the idea to Parliament, who then approved it. A democratically elected Parliament democratically voted in favour of it, in accordance with Parliamentary democracy. That should be enough democracy to satisfy anyone.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whose idea the referendum was, it was held. And Call-me-Dave had cocked up big time on his calculations.

Although you choose these facts with care I agree with all of them.

Blue3 · Feb 21, 2017

David Cameron was a chancer and played three really big gambles two worked out as he anticipated the third did not, he has now gone and it's for the rest of us to pick up the pieces and move on.

The whole EU in/out debate has been largely but not exclusively Tory led with the pro Brexit side kept under close watch for decades and certainly nowhere near power as such many left to join UKIP.

David Cameron offered a referendum to win the last election outright and the Tories were loosing supporters at an alarming rate to UKIP .

I voted remain but we lost I accept that but those leading the whole negotiations are in many cases the same Tories kept under close watch for decades those that in my opinion do not and could not represent my and many others who voted remain

Titanic · Feb 21, 2017

Conservative Lord Finkelstein, from late last night, on the EU referendum:

Pretty pink fairy · Feb 21, 2017

Blue3 said:
David Cameron was a chancer and played three really big gambles two worked out as he anticipated the third did not, he has now gone and it's for the rest of us to pick up the pieces and move on.

The whole EU in/out debate has been largely but not exclusively Tory led with the pro Brexit side kept under close watch for decades and certainly nowhere near power as such many left to join UKIP. David Cameron offered a referendum to win the last election outright and the Tories were loosing supporters at an alarming rate to UKIP .

I voted remain but we lost I accept that but those leading the whole negotiations are in many cases the same Tories kept under close watch for decades those that in my opinion do not and could not represent my and many others who voted remain

THAT WASN'T THE VOTE , the vote was to leave :wink:

regards
DR

Pretty pink fairy · Feb 21, 2017

lincoln imp said:
although you choose these facts with care i agree with all of them.

care

they're the facts staring you in the face :facepalm:

regards
DR

GT49er · Feb 21, 2017

Lincoln Imp said:
Although you choose these facts with care I agree with all of them.

They are facts. Whether you agree with them or not. Of course, if you'd care to suggest one of the facts isn't in fact a fact.........................

Lincoln Imp · Feb 21, 2017

GT49er said:
They are facts. Whether you agree with them or not. Of course, if you'd care to suggest one of the facts isn't in fact a fact.........................

Blimey. The fact of the matter is that all the facts you state are indeed facts and as a matter of fact I don't dispute them. And that's a fact. (Mind, you, there was also an assumption in there and that was a load of old rubbish.)

Pretty pink fairy · Feb 21, 2017

Lincoln Imp said:
Blimey. The fact of the matter is that all the facts you state are indeed facts and as a matter of fact I don't dispute them. And that's a fact. (Mind, you, there was also an assumption in there and that was a load of old rubbish.)

YOU'RE AN ART FORM IN OLD RUBBISH

regards
DR

Lincoln Imp · Feb 21, 2017

Plooks said:
Sigh. Open boarders is, fundamentally, and morally a good thing. You can not deny that. Why should anyone be restricted as to where they live and work by some random line on a map? We should, and need, to be able to freely move wherever we wish as part of our basic human rights.

Apologies if I am wrong but I think the poster you reply to has previously said he is against the free movement of workers even within the UK. I believe this is connected to the difficulties of providing housing and public services to people if they insist on moving around.

pastafarian · Feb 21, 2017

Lincoln Imp said:
Cameron called the referendum to satisfy his own right wingers and neutralise UKIP. His decision, which he made outside cabinet and with reference to few colleagues, was made for the internal convenience of the Conservative Party. (Put me down as another lie-telling liar if it makes you feel warm inside.)

No need for you to go all self-loathing and add extras on to your victim card, you are not lying, you just went for half truth
Cameron called the referendum to satisfy his own euro sceptic MP`s and neutralise UKIP AND because it was becoming increasingly impossible to ignore public opinion from all political spectrums that were demanding a referendum on the issue and put it to bed once and for all.( lets not forget some polls were as high as 80% wanting a referendum, with most averaging in the high 60`s For having one and around 25% Against having one,these same polls though mostly said people would still vote to stay in)

The poster who said it was solely down to tory in fighting was telling porkies.

The Clamp · Feb 21, 2017

pastafarian said:
No need for you to go all self-loathing and add extras on to your victim card, you are not lying, you just went for half truth
Cameron called the referendum to satisfy his own euro sceptic MP`s and neutralise UKIP AND because it was becoming increasingly impossible to ignore public opinion from all political spectrums that were demanding a referendum on the issue and put it to bed once and for all.( lets not forget some polls were as high as 80% wanting a referendum, with most averaging in the high 60`s For having one and around 25% Against having one,these same polls though mostly said people would still vote to stay in)

The poster who said it was solely down to tory in fighting was telling porkies.

What gives you exclusive inside knowledge? It's pretty obvious why Cameron called it and it's not for the reasons you are lying about.

pastafarian · Feb 21, 2017

The Clamp said:
What gives you exclusive inside knowledge? It's pretty obvious why Cameron called it and it's not for the reasons you are lying about.

i agreed with lincoln imp about tory infighting and neutralise UKIP.
If you feel im lying about public opinion wanting a referendum feel free to link all those polls that show the majority of the public had no appetite for one

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