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[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?

  • Total voters
    1,081










C

cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,747
Simster said:
Your insistence that anyone who is pro-EU is a Tory-sympathiser is getting fking boring now, not least because it is total bollocks. It is not the EU at fault for failing to protect British workers, it is the fact that the electorate is constantly hoodwinked into electing useless Tory governments. Look at 2017 - their whole campaign revolved around "if you don't vote for us, you'll get that nasty Jeremy Corbyn". Their manifesto was the biggest load of nonsensical meaningless fluff I've ever seen published by a political party.

And in case you hadn't noticed, this country hasn't voted in a socialist government since the '70s - you're no friend of the trade unions if you think the solution is to pull up the drawbridge and let the British establishment carry on their merry way. It'll just be more of the same, only worse because the EU won't be there to protect us AT ALL.

Indeed, I wonder where we'd even be if it wasn't for the fact that Blair implemented the EU social charter - some 10 years later than everyone else, owing to the fact that the Tories couldn't bear to implement a laughably small minimum wage of about £4.50 an hour. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


As you well know from the many exchanges we have had on the EU for years on this thread I take the old Labour Party view on how the EU works.

That means you and all the other pro EU mob can be legitimately labelled shithouse Tory capitalist shills or similar. If that gets under your skin, then I'm pleased, it's meant to.

It is absolutely not disengenuous to call you lot shilling Tory shithouses either, because as you never seem to understand (or accept) it was old Labour Party and trade union values that were in direct opposition to the objectives of the EU when the EU was forming.

Whether this opposition is based on Benn's view of the illigitimate nature of the EU's democratic structure, the EU's opposition to nationalisation or the EU's prioritisation of free markets, all of these aspects and more are no friend to any orthodox Labour Party supporter.

I honestly never get bored of reminding you Thatcher boys these lessons, because they are undeniably true; it was the Tories that took us in under Heath and it was then the Tories that campaigned to remain in the EEC with Thatcher at the helm of the campaign in the 70s. It may be a boring repetitive refrain to you but it is the truth, only a cretin would argue that it's not true.

For some on here I appreciate they will be too young and therefore politically naive to have a grasp of the history of left wing opposition to the EU......exposing their belief system is essential so that they understand what they are. There is nothing wrong with supporting the EU, many do, and as the post referendum posts on this thread prove the focus is always on maintains free markets, supporting global corporatism and it's supposed benefits for the UK. They may be new Labour views but they are not orthodox left wing views.

You though, as with others are old enough to know the lesson, you know it well and ignore it because you don't want to be reminded of what you are.......a shithouse Tory capitalist shill.
 


C

cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,747
5ways said:
I don't think that, but Uganda is a sovereign country too for all the good it does them dealing with the EU.
Click to expand...

This answer indicates that poor sovereign countries like Uganda don't get a fair deal from the EU, which (if that is what you mean) is quite possibly the first post you have made on this thread that I agree with. They don't get a fair deal, in some fairness to the EU they will be fairer to Uganda than Russia or China, but they will not be fair.

African countries are hamstrung by EU trade deals, whether due to unfair trade tariffs, cheap dumping or even its aid programs. These all make those poor countries ability (like Uganda) to help itself much more difficult. For example even second hand clothing donations from charities have had a profound effect on local clothing business in African countries, many of these go bust in the face of literally free second hand clothes.

They need fair trade, not aid.........that will never happen all the while the EU remains aggressively protectionist with CAP at the centre of that protectionist stance.

One last point, the UK is not Uganda......not even remotely.
 




melias shoes

melias shoes

Well-known member
Oct 14, 2010
4,830
cunning fergus said:
As you well know from the many exchanges we have had on the EU for years on this thread I take the old Labour Party view on how the EU works.

That means you and all the other pro EU mob can be legitimately labelled shithouse Tory capitalist shills or similar. If that gets under your skin, then I'm pleased, it's meant to.

It is absolutely not disengenuous to call you lot shilling Tory shithouses either, because as you never seem to understand (or accept) it was old Labour Party and trade union values that were in direct opposition to the objectives of the EU when the EU was forming.

Whether this opposition is based on Benn's view of the illigitimate nature of the EU's democratic structure, the EU's opposition to nationalisation or the EU's prioritisation of free markets, all of these aspects and more are no friend to any orthodox Labour Party supporter.

I honestly never get bored of reminding you Thatcher boys these lessons, because they are undeniably true; it was the Tories that took us in under Heath and it was then the Tories that campaigned to remain in the EEC with Thatcher at the helm of the campaign in the 70s. It may be a boring repetitive refrain to you but it is the truth, only a cretin would argue that it's not true.

For some on here I appreciate they will be too young and therefore politically naive to have a grasp of the history of left wing opposition to the EU......exposing their belief system is essential so that they understand what they are. There is nothing wrong with supporting the EU, many do, and as the post referendum posts on this thread prove the focus is always on maintains free markets, supporting global corporatism and it's supposed benefits for the UK. They may be new Labour views but they are not orthodox left wing views.

You though, as with others are old enough to know the lesson, you know it well and ignore it because you don't want to be reminded of what you are.......a shithouse Tory capitalist shill.
Click to expand...

You seem to overlook the fact that a high percentage of leve voters were Labour voters. The referendum vote was a cross party result. Just saying.
 


CheeseRolls

CheeseRolls

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 27, 2009
5,967
Shoreham Beach
cunning fergus said:
As you well know from the many exchanges we have had on the EU for years on this thread I take the old Labour Party view on how the EU works.

That means you and all the other pro EU mob can be legitimately labelled shithouse Tory capitalist shills or similar. If that gets under your skin, then I'm pleased, it's meant to.

It is absolutely not disengenuous to call you lot shilling Tory shithouses either, because as you never seem to understand (or accept) it was old Labour Party and trade union values that were in direct opposition to the objectives of the EU when the EU was forming.

Whether this opposition is based on Benn's view of the illigitimate nature of the EU's democratic structure, the EU's opposition to nationalisation or the EU's prioritisation of free markets, all of these aspects and more are no friend to any orthodox Labour Party supporter.

I honestly never get bored of reminding you Thatcher boys these lessons, because they are undeniably true; it was the Tories that took us in under Heath and it was then the Tories that campaigned to remain in the EEC with Thatcher at the helm of the campaign in the 70s. It may be a boring repetitive refrain to you but it is the truth, only a cretin would argue that it's not true.

For some on here I appreciate they will be too young and therefore politically naive to have a grasp of the history of left wing opposition to the EU......exposing their belief system is essential so that they understand what they are. There is nothing wrong with supporting the EU, many do, and as the post referendum posts on this thread prove the focus is always on maintains free markets, supporting global corporatism and it's supposed benefits for the UK. They may be new Labour views but they are not orthodox left wing views.

You though, as with others are old enough to know the lesson, you know it well and ignore it because you don't want to be reminded of what you are.......a shithouse Tory capitalist shill.
Click to expand...
I think you put together a cogent argument. The EU is big enough and ugly enough to have many flaws. What your argument lacks is any sense of conviction. I doubt anyone reading this gets the sense that the points you are making matter to you, other than the over arching quit the EU at any cost.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 


C

cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,747
melias shoes said:
You seem to overlook the fact that a high percentage of leve voters were Labour voters. The referendum vote was a cross party result. Just saying.
Click to expand...


No I haven't, that there was a high leave rate among labour supporters is absolutely no surprise to me or the point I am making, particularly not taking in to consideration the distribution of age for leave voters.

Older "old" Labour Party supporters remember that in the 60s, 70s and 80s euro scepticism was in the Labour Party DNA. Trade unions were opposed, and as late as Kinnock's general election campaigns he wanted out........I can't think what changed his mind.

And then there was Blair.
 




C

cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,747
CheeseRolls said:
I think you put together a cogent argument. The EU is big enough and ugly enough to have many flaws. What your argument lacks is any sense of conviction. I doubt anyone reading this gets the sense that the points you are making matter to you, other than the over arching quit the EU at any cost.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

So let me get this right, I have demonstrated the case for why euro scepticism has deep roots on the political left, but you don't think I support the objectives of the political left because my post lacks "conviction".

I am not sure how I can deal with that, maybe for you I will Ned to add in the odd reference to "comrade" or "eat the rich"......would that make you happy?
 


nicko31

nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
17,611
Gods country fortnightly


melias shoes

melias shoes

Well-known member
Oct 14, 2010
4,830
cunning fergus said:
No I haven't, that there was a high leave rate among labour supporters is absolutely no surprise to me or the point I am making, particularly not taking in to consideration the distribution of age for leave voters.

Older "old" Labour Party supporters remember that in the 60s, 70s and 80s euro scepticism was in the Labour Party DNA. Trade unions were opposed, and as late as Kinnock's general election campaigns he wanted out........I can't think what changed his mind.

And then there was Blair.
Click to expand...
Kinnock saw the gravy train and jumped on. No shame that man. Sold out to the EU. Now very pro. Like you say what changed his mind I wonder.
 




5

5ways

Well-known member
Sep 18, 2012
2,217
cunning fergus said:
This answer indicates that poor sovereign countries like Uganda don't get a fair deal from the EU, which (if that is what you mean) is quite possibly the first post you have made on this thread that I agree with. They don't get a fair deal, in some fairness to the EU they will be fairer to Uganda than Russia or China, but they will not be fair.

African countries are hamstrung by EU trade deals, whether due to unfair trade tariffs, cheap dumping or even its aid programs. These all make those poor countries ability (like Uganda) to help itself much more difficult. For example even second hand clothing donations from charities have had a profound effect on local clothing business in African countries, many of these go bust in the face of literally free second hand clothes.

They need fair trade, not aid.........that will never happen all the while the EU remains aggressively protectionist with CAP at the centre of that protectionist stance.

One last point, the UK is not Uganda......not even remotely.
Click to expand...

Right. Big players will turn their economic power into political leverage. This is important to remember when we are trying to strike trade deals on our own.
 


C

cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,747
5ways said:
Right. Big players will turn their economic power into political leverage. This is important to remember when we are trying to strike trade deals on our own.
Click to expand...


Couldn't agree more, if you have nothing to offer then you are going to take it up the small colon in a negotiation.

That's why a top 5 country with the developed economic, military, legal, political and cultural assets like the UK is placed well in any negotiation.

Happy days, another position we agree on.
 


ManOfSussex

ManOfSussex

We wunt be druv
Apr 11, 2016
14,748
Rape of Hastings, Sussex
cunning fergus said:
This answer indicates that poor sovereign countries like Uganda don't get a fair deal from the EU, which (if that is what you mean) is quite possibly the first post you have made on this thread that I agree with. They don't get a fair deal, in some fairness to the EU they will be fairer to Uganda than Russia or China, but they will not be fair.

African countries are hamstrung by EU trade deals, whether due to unfair trade tariffs, cheap dumping or even its aid programs. These all make those poor countries ability (like Uganda) to help itself much more difficult. For example even second hand clothing donations from charities have had a profound effect on local clothing business in African countries, many of these go bust in the face of literally free second hand clothes.

They need fair trade, not aid.........that will never happen all the while the EU remains aggressively protectionist with CAP at the centre of that protectionist stance.

One last point, the UK is not Uganda......not even remotely.
Click to expand...

Have you been to much of Africa or lived there out of interest?
 










nicko31

nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
17,611
Gods country fortnightly




ManOfSussex

ManOfSussex

We wunt be druv
Apr 11, 2016
14,748
Rape of Hastings, Sussex
Last edited:


ManOfSussex

ManOfSussex

We wunt be druv
Apr 11, 2016
14,748
Rape of Hastings, Sussex
nicko31 said:
Actually starting to warm to Gove, doesn't seem to be as bad as Environment Minister as I thought he would be. As for this, if only Nige had done more as an MEP, what was it 1 in 43 meetings on fisheries?
Click to expand...

In fairness he's only succeeding Andrea Leadsom, it's hardly a hard act to follow.
 


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