[Politics] Brexit

cunning fergus · Jul 30, 2017

Berty23 said:
And the thing is it is obviously much much much easier for us to control the borders because we are a sodding island. Other countries in the EU could not believe the approach we took.

I recall some cretin telling the public that we would only revive 15,000 migrants.......then again those were in the days that the man in control of the Gov't finances regularly used to espouse a view that he had abolished the economic cycle of boom and bust.

Crazy crazy days.......little wonder we are in our way out of the EU.

ManOfSussex · Jul 30, 2017

It was 13,000 a year from a report commissioned by...................The Home Office.

Berty23 · Jul 30, 2017

cunning fergus said:
I recall some cretin telling the public that we would only revive 15,000 migrants.......then again those were in the days that the man in control of the Gov't finances regularly used to espouse a view that he had abolished the economic cycle of boom and bust.

Crazy crazy days.......little wonder we are in our way out of the EU.

Doesn't change the fact we could change rules rather than take our ball home. Well we go home and leave our football for the big boys to play with and sit on our own with no friends pretending that the hard kid in the town miles away will play with us.

cunning fergus · Jul 30, 2017

Berty23 said:
Doesn't change the fact we could change rules rather than take our ball home. Well we go home and leave our football for the big boys to play with and sit on our own with no friends pretending that the hard kid in the town miles away will play with us.

Sure, you can make the same argument about our politicians never being straight with the British public about the ultimate destination of the EU project. Edward Heath knew about the future aim for a single currency and political union when he joined the EEC and yet he kept that bit quiet.

Successive PMs and senior politicians have maintained a similar "quiet" approach about the aims and objectives of the EU when questioned about the EU, and this approach has come back to haunt them.

Brexit is the ultimate consequence of this historical approach of how the British political class have managed EU related matters with the British public. Gordon Brown promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty blah blah blah.

Blame them not the public.

Berty23 · Jul 30, 2017

cunning fergus said:
Sure, you can make the same argument about our politicians never being straight with the British public about the ultimate destination of the EU project. Edward Heath knew about the future aim for a single currency and political union when he joined the EEC and yet he kept that bit quiet.

Successive PMs and senior politicians have maintained a similar "quiet" approach about the aims and objectives of the EU when questioned about the EU, and this approach has come back to haunt them.

Brexit is the ultimate consequence of this historical approach of how the British political class have managed EU related matters with the British public. Gordon Brown promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty blah blah blah.

Blame them not the public.

Are we in the euro? Didn't realise. Or...was that us saying no thanks like we can on so many things that people don't realise we can.

cunning fergus · Jul 30, 2017

Berty23 said:
Are we in the euro? Didn't realise. Or...was that us saying no thanks like we can on so many things that people don't realise we can.

10/10 for ignoring the point.

However your reference to the euro is interesting only o the extent that many politicians and business leaders currently pissing their pants about Brexit would be the same mob 17 years (or so) ago advocating we join it.

Had it been politically popular I think we would have joined, thankfully the British public had more sense than many of its politicians. As they do today.......God bless 'em.

cunning fergus · Jul 30, 2017

ManOfSussex said:
It was 13,000 a year from a report commissioned by...................The Home Office.

Sure.....experts eh?

Steve in Japan · Jul 30, 2017

cunning fergus said:
Sure, you can make the same argument about our politicians never being straight with the British public about the ultimate destination of the EU project. Edward Heath knew about the future aim for a single currency and political union when he joined the EEC and yet he kept that bit quiet.

Successive PMs and senior politicians have maintained a similar "quiet" approach about the aims and objectives of the EU when questioned about the EU, and this approach has come back to haunt them.

Brexit is the ultimate consequence of this historical approach of how the British political class have managed EU related matters with the British public. Gordon Brown promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty blah blah blah.

Blame them not the public.

Most sensible thing I've seen posted on this gargantuan thread for a while.

My own view is that the EU project could maybe have been "sold" to the UK if a little more honesty had been forthcoming from Major or Blair. It never was, and even now those two will be wheeled out of retirement (semi retirement in the latter's case) to rail against Brexit.

If there is a moral to this 40+ year affair, which I doubt, it should be to be open and honest with the voters. Obfuscation will eventually bite you on the bum.

ManOfSussex · Jul 30, 2017

cunning fergus said:
Sure.....experts eh?

Yep. The Home Office and Government completely ignored that 'expert's' advice on the 13,000 figure and treated it as gospel when he actually made it clear in his 2003 report that the 13,000 figure would be far higher if Germany and other dastardly Johnny Foreigner countries in The EU put restrictions on the A8 Johnny Foreigner countries joining the evil empire that is The EU and we didn't. So you're quite right, it's best not to listen to experts and just make it up as you go along and totally misinterpret things, as The Home Office did back then as obviously everything will probably be alright with Brexit, so long as we don't listen to experts or just ignore them/spin their advice/just write it on the back of a fag packet etc.

studio150 · Jul 30, 2017

cunning fergus said:
Had it been politically popular I think we would have joined, thankfully the British public had more sense than many of its politicians. As they do today.......God bless 'em.

Nothing like rewriting history for your own benefit.

At the time there were 5 economic tests put forward by Gordon Brown which would need to be satisfied if the UK was going to join the Euro, But why let history get in the way.

nicko31 · Jul 30, 2017

cunning fergus said:
It was the older generation that we have to thank for taking us into the EEC, therefore their judgement over the quid pro quo is all the more relevant in the post Brexit debate. They knew what membership of the EEC was going to provide, they lived through it, and then when asked again to re-affirm their original judgment they roundly rejected it.

The young who do not possess their elders experience would do well to remember this........but the they are young and dumb........it has always been thus.

There will probably never be a more fortunate generation than the war babies / baby boomers, cheap house prices, pensions given out by people who couldn't add up, the NHS at its peak, 40 years of sustained economic growth, some people will never be thankful

June 2016, proved there will probably never be a more selfish generation. My days of respect for the elderly are over

portslade seagull · Jul 30, 2017

nicko31 said:
There will probably never be a more fortunate generation than the war babies / baby boomers, cheap house prices, pensions given out by people who couldn't add up, the NHS at its peak, 40 years of sustained economic growth, some people will never be thankful

June 2016, proved there will probably never be a more selfish generation. My days of respect for the elderly are over

You're attitude towards them doesn't deserve any respect. Your the ultimate spoilt brat

ManOfSussex · Jul 30, 2017

portslade seagull said:
You're attitude towards them doesn't deserve any respect. Your the ultimate spoilt brat

You are - everything you know including centrism died when Cameron resigned. Welcome to the future you voted for, it's called Corbyn. At least they'll raid the money trees in the offshore forest. Rejoice!

Hastings gull · Jul 30, 2017

nicko31 said:
There will probably never be a more fortunate generation than the war babies / baby boomers, cheap house prices, pensions given out by people who couldn't add up, the NHS at its peak, 40 years of sustained economic growth, some people will never be thankful

June 2016, proved there will probably never be a more selfish generation. My days of respect for the elderly are over

Think about what you have written! Who do you think was responsible for this? It was due to the thrift and hard work of the elderly, as you put it, and has nothing to do with bring fortunate.

nicko31 · Jul 30, 2017

Hastings gull said:
Think about what you have written! Who do you think was responsible for this? It was due to the thrift and hard work of the elderly, as you put it, and has nothing to do with bring fortunate.

Yes on the back of EU membership, thank you..

Lincoln Imp · Jul 30, 2017

Hastings gull said:
Think about what you have written! Who do you think was responsible for this? It was due to the thrift and hard work of the elderly, as you put it, and has nothing to do with bring fortunate.

I disagree - it is impossible to claim that 'the elderly' worked harder than the generations that have followed them. Many of them worked hard, as do many of their children today, but the honest among the old will agree that the stars aligned for them in a way that no longer happens. (One of those stars was, many would say, our accession to the EU halfway through the baby boomers' three score years and ten: growth accelerated after we joined I believe.)

Blue3 · Jul 31, 2017

nicko31 said:
There will probably never be a more fortunate generation than the war babies / baby boomers, cheap house prices, pensions given out by people who couldn't add up, the NHS at its peak, 40 years of sustained economic growth, some people will never be thankful

June 2016, proved there will probably never be a more selfish generation. My days of respect for the elderly are over

Steady on old boy not all of us oldies voted leave

pastafarian · Jul 31, 2017

daveinprague said:
Some are so unpatriotic, they have served in the countries armed forces. A few no mark, done **** all for the country wankers seem to have over inflated opinions of themselves.

17,410,742 have served the country brilliantly.

pastafarian · Jul 31, 2017

Jim in the West said:
Just to clarify the "no planes" point. The issue is - if we don't do a deal with the EU, then the planes WILL stop flying. There are lots of other very significant risks and consequences, but perhaps the cessation of flights would be the most symbolic outcome of our new found isolation from Europe, post-Brexit. For obvious reasons it would be political suicide for anyone to preside over a situation which leads to a no flights scenario. My point has been that - given what's at stake - as soon as we triggered Article 50 we gave pretty much all the bargaining chips to the EU. Those in charge of this sorry situation decided to put their faith in the willingness of the other side (the EU) to cave in. They somehow think that the desire to continue selling BMWs in the UK is more important to the Germans than the integrity of the EU project.

Fortunately, most of the cabinet now realise the enormity of the decisions they have taken, and are desperately trying to find some sort of face-saving compromise. They are, of course, petrified of having to put this new scenario to the democratic test and therefore want everything sorted by 2022. We now live in a situation where an advisory referendum (on an extremely complex issue, where pretty much every statement (on either side) was a lie or partial truth) is more important than parliamentary votes and general elections. Brexiteers accuse Remainers of being undemocratic because they somehow believe we don't accept the referendum result. That isn't the point - we've had the referendum, and my personal objective is to work (democratically) to try to change people's mind. I believe that a large number of people who voted Leave did so as a protest against a whole range of inequalities which are NOT caused by the EU, and will in all likelihood be considerably worsened by our departure.

Hope that sets the record straight!

Its refreshing to see a remainer confirm pretty much every statement on the Remain side was a lie or partial truth.
With regard to setting the record straight,the economic implosion that you wish on the country that will no doubt result in millions losing their jobs, homes and god knows what else……do you have a preference for this year or next?

Jim in the West said:
My point was that the German government seems to know how to govern, whilst ours doesn't. I don't really care about the nationality of those who govern me, as long as they have the best interests of the people at heart. Our current government is more interested their own personal vendettas than doing what's right for the country.
.

The wonderful German government has overseen probably the most idiotic policy in the history of Europe since another silly jumped up Germanic Austrian had crackers ideas as well. “ get yourself to Germany if you are Syrian and we will let you in” made an already disastrous migrant situation catastrophic, thousands drowned as a direct result of the policy (no matter though eh if you wave a refugees welcome banner, you get to be exempt from backing the bloodshed), it made countries put up physical barbed wire borders and the repercussions of how to handle the fallout are still now dividing European nations. But Kudos to the Germans for coming up with the idea of state backed mass drowning.

Jim in the West said:
And I know she only has a symbolic role, but the Queen is basically German,.

Its an interesting formula you live by saying the Queen is basically German.

Queen- Born Britain
Mother and Father – Born Britain
4 Grandparents – Born Britain
1 out of 8 Great Grandparents – Born in Germany
Queen is basically German.

What do you say to 2nd generation Pakistanis born here of Pakistani immigrants who like to think of themselves as fully British?....”Hold on there chap, you can think you are British as much as you like but you are still basically Pakistani.”
How many generations of born here do you have to have according to your guidebook before you can actually be considered British?

Still foreign if you are born here. Give preference for entry to those from mostly white European countries. Freedom of movement and no borders for all is wonderful….but not for those obviously from countries who don’t have European blood.
Are you sure the Brexit side is the anti immigration side?

The Clamp · Jul 31, 2017

pastafarian said:
Its refreshing to see a remainer confirm pretty much every statement on the Remain side was a lie or partial truth.
With regard to setting the record straight,the economic implosion that you wish on the country that will no doubt result in millions losing their jobs, homes and god knows what else……do you have a preference for this year or next?

The wonderful German government has overseen probably the most idiotic policy in the history of Europe since another silly jumped up Germanic Austrian had crackers ideas as well. “ get yourself to Germany if you are Syrian and we will let you in” made an already disastrous migrant situation catastrophic, thousands drowned as a direct result of the policy (no matter though eh if you wave a refugees welcome banner, you get to be exempt from backing the bloodshed), it made countries put up physical barbed wire borders and the repercussions of how to handle the fallout are still now dividing European nations. But Kudos to the Germans for coming up with the idea of state backed mass drowning.

Its an interesting formula you live by saying the Queen is basically German.

Queen- Born Britain
Mother and Father – Born Britain
4 Grandparents – Born Britain
1 out of 8 Great Grandparents – Born in Germany
Queen is basically German.

What do you say to 2nd generation Pakistanis born here of Pakistani immigrants who like to think of themselves as fully British?....”Hold on there chap, you can think you are British as much as you like but you are still basically Pakistani.”
How many generations of born here do you have to have according to your guidebook before you can actually be considered British?

Still foreign if you are born here. Give preference for entry to those from mostly white European countries. Freedom of movement and no borders for all is wonderful….but not for those obviously from countries who don’t have European blood.
Are you sure the Brexit side is the anti immigration side?

Kim's first post here is absolutely excellent and well written. Non combative and fair. It speaks volumes about you that you treated it with contempt and deliberately ignored the point. You whine that nobody makes valid points and that posters resort to insults too often but when someone does address the issue in a coherent and respectful fashion you resort to your usual vacuous tripe. Once again, your true colours shine through.

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