[Politics] Brexit

Bold Seagull said:

I think you two are both overstating the importance of what brexit actually is. 52% - 48%. Not all of the 52% would have voted for a 'hard' brexit like you 2 did. Even if a modest 10% only voted leave for sovereignty reasons but happy to remain in the single market, then 58% of the electorate would supposedly be happier with a soft brexit.

You both seem to believe the referendum was far more detailed than what the question was asked of us, do we leave or remain. No other detail, no other proposal of what that meant. None of us voted on the type of deal, what that would be, hard, soft, it is all up for grabs, the only decision is to leave the EU. There is no betrayal of the referendum result if we leave, even if the softest possible deal looking like we are almost in it, but just out, we are still out, the referendum is still fulfilled. If you are not happy, you can join the min 48% that won't be happy either. In fact, this referendum was never going to have a majority of people happy.

As with all referendums, it leaves our political system in turmoil, creating only division. This is proving to be the case. There will be no majority happy with the type of brexit, whether hard, soft, in between, stay in, there will not be majority consensus, it simply won't happen.

Click to expand...

Bold Seagull said:

I think you two are both overstating the importance of what brexit actually is. 52% - 48%. Not all of the 52% would have voted for a 'hard' brexit like you 2 did. Even if a modest 10% only voted leave for sovereignty reasons but happy to remain in the single market, then 58% of the electorate would supposedly be happier with a soft brexit.

You both seem to believe the referendum was far more detailed than what the question was asked of us, do we leave or remain. No other detail, no other proposal of what that meant. None of us voted on the type of deal, what that would be, hard, soft, it is all up for grabs, the only decision is to leave the EU. There is no betrayal of the referendum result if we leave, even if the softest possible deal looking like we are almost in it, but just out, we are still out, the referendum is still fulfilled. If you are not happy, you can join the min 48% that won't be happy either. In fact, this referendum was never going to have a majority of people happy.

As with all referendums, it leaves our political system in turmoil, creating only division. This is proving to be the case. There will be no majority happy with the type of brexit, whether hard, soft, in between, stay in, there will not be majority consensus, it simply won't happen.

Click to expand...

beorhthelm said:

i dont know why you keep on this angle, the remain campaign was very clear about what we'd be leaving. in fact, they spent rather more time on that then telling us why we should stay.

i always wonder how many remainers voted further federalisation, EU Foreign policy and army, joining the euro and centralised fiscal policy, all matters on the agenda in Brussels for the coming decade. do you support all these issues, or did you just support the single market and believe it comes with no further costs?

Click to expand...

pastafarian said:

the two main parties are now " hard" brexit according to the definition of "hard" by the remainers
no more membership of the single market or customs union but seek to have their benefits, freedom of movement finished as is primacy of ECJ as laws flow back to Westminster or beyond.
82 % of voters voted for parties advocating so called " hard brexit"

Its over chap......remaining in The EU and overturning the referendum vote is now officially finished and dead.
You have run out of supporters

Click to expand...

Westdene Seagull said:

Utter utter bollocks. I voted leave and I want 'hard' exit - i.e. complete and utter exit. I voted Labour this GE because the national parties BOTH Labour and Tory were so awful and the local sitting MP was so good. I still want a proper exit and if the Tories back down ( as is being suggested in the Telegraph today ) my vote next time will immediately revert to UKIP. We've been betrayed since the early 70's around the truth of the EEC / EU ( something Heath admitted ). If the Tories betray the referendum result then they deserve to never govern again.

The remainers should stop assuming that the result of the GE was leavers changing their minds on leaving ..... it wasn't and the assumption makes them look a bit stupid.

Click to expand...

Bold Seagull said:

I am merely countering your points about 'this will not be what I voted for'. You didn't vote for anything but Leave. That is all. How Leave manifests itself no one has voted on, because we leave that to our parliamentary democracy.

Click to expand...

n the worst-case scenario, we end up with a poor Brexit deal rejected in parliament but with no alternative available, presided over by ministers suffering mounting public and business dissatisfaction, leading to the election of a Labour government led, in effect, by Marxists.

Faced with such dangers, sitting tight is not an option. Napoleon’s maxim that “the side that stays within its fortifications is beaten” applies fully to this situation. Breaking out of these problems will require a change both of style and substance, treating last week’s terrible outcome as an opportunity and a duty to tackle intractable issues in new ways.

Click to expand...

Change the emphasis given to the UK’s objectives, with a clear indication that economic growth will have priority over controlling the number of people entering the country for work. This would show a readiness to accommodate the views of Scottish Conservatives, business organisations and, to some degree, opposition parties, within certain parameters.

Click to expand...

We can negotiate the “bold and ambitious free trade agreement” that the British people would like to see if we take a pragmatic approach to how we use the control we will have won back.

There are various ways of doing this. One of them – put forward in this column before – is to bring in work permits for workers from the EU but agree to grant them to anyone who gets a job in Britain, unless they have a criminal record, or extremist connections. They would not receive any support if out of work, and the same rights would have to apply to British citizens throughout the EU. This approach, just one significant step short of free movement, would set the stage for a promising trade negotiation, and avoid damaging our own industries relying on European workers, from banking to fruit picking.

Click to expand...

heathgate said:

I can see a raft of high profile Brexiteer MP'S drifting away from Labour and Conservatives if Brexit involves free movement and/or legislative primacy with ECJ .... that then could see UKIP or another new party, maybe with some heavy hitters at the helm, taking to the polls.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

beorhthelm said:

and i'm merely countering your points. you didnt vote for anything other than Remain. how Remain manifests itself wasn't voted on either.

Click to expand...

CHAPPERS said:

Inflation running at 2.9%

[tweet]874558982198878208[/tweet]

Click to expand...

vegster said:

Nothing to do with the decline in the value of the Pound since the Brexit vote. .... Of course.

Click to expand...

Lincoln Imp said:

...to which you must add the fact that in any case the decline in the value of the pound since the Brexit vote had nothing to do with Brexit... apparently it was going to plummet anyway. Any connection with June 23 was purely coincidental.

Click to expand...

pastafarian said:

the two main parties are now " hard" brexit according to the definition of "hard" by the remainers
no more membership of the single market or customs union but seek to have their benefits, freedom of movement finished as is primacy of ECJ as laws flow back to Westminster or beyond.
82 % of voters voted for parties advocating so called " hard brexit"

Its over chap......remaining in The EU and overturning the referendum vote is now officially finished and dead.
You have run out of supporters

Click to expand...

CHAPPERS said:

Inflation running at 2.9%

[tweet]874558982198878208[/tweet]

Click to expand...

bashlsdir said:

I'm financially better off w.

Click to expand...

Herr Tubthumper said:

But, the reality is that the government, with their fragile majority, will not be able to get a hard Brexit through parliament now.

Stop moaning? Get over it you've lost?

Click to expand...

Bold Seagull said:

You weren't countering my points, you missed the point, then asked me a question in return. You are agreeing with me with what you are saying above.

Had Remain won, exactly as my argument was saying and as you are pointing out, there was no detail on what remain would be either, how it should go on to be in the future, whether further political integration, or whether we should have been resisting / reducing or whatever. That is why referendums in truth are political and democratic own goals. You vote on a single question which everyone has different ideas on, then after that question has managed to divide all our political parties as well as the electorate, we expect Parliament to sort it out and deliver what we all wanted, only no one told us what that was.

Click to expand...

East Preston Gull said:

I think had remain won, the EU would have taken that as a green light to shackle us in full stop.

It was effectively a vote to leave or join. Remain was as cunning as the new fraud buzzword, soft or hard Brexit.

I voted leave because I wanted out of the EU and assumed that would mean leaving the trade bloc and the growth killer that is the customs union.

I am sure I am starting to repeat myself again��

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Herr Tubthumper said:

But, the reality is that the government, with their fragile majority, will not be able to get a hard Brexit through parliament now.

Stop moaning? Get over it you've lost?

Click to expand...