[Politics] Brexit

beorhthelm · Sep 17, 2017

Berty23 said:
Reason 5672 why no deal is simply not an option.

https://twitter.com/alison_mcgovern/status/908674922565767168

had to chuckle at and highlight this:

there are 130,000 British exporting companies that currently have no red-tape to deal with, but will have to after Brexit.

would love to know where this number comes from. what sort of company exports exclusivly to EU and no other country? but the mirth was at the notion that the only red tape that exists is from customs. what about VAT? what about the various compliance with regulations and rules for whatever standards applied to goods and services in the EU? and then theres the notion that a HMRC system that has to cope with import and export to the world, cant be adjusted to add 27 additional countries to a drop down list.

nicko31 said:
Incredible the likes of Dyson and Martin are peddling the line we'll be OK in the event of a cliff edge, just plain irresponsible. I'm alright jack

Dyson's point was hardly "im alright jack", he was pointing out his company already faces all the doom of tariffs and customs, yet is growing within the EU.

Two Professors · Sep 17, 2017

WOW.Did you see all those EU flags waving when Lewis won today (in a British car with a german label on it)?No?Neither did I! :clap:

ManOfSussex · Sep 17, 2017

beorhthelm said:
what sort of company exports exclusivly to EU and no other country?

A mate of mine in Bexhill who's company only exports to clients in Germany and Romania, for one. Just 129,999 others then.

beorhthelm said:
then theres the notion that a HMRC system that has to cope with import and export to the world, cant be adjusted to add 27 additional countries to a drop down list.

Do you work for HMRC and know how their system operates then? Is it similar to existing Home Office systems that will struggle with the 10 additional matrix's required for Settled Status on top of existing workloads or not?

beorhthelm · Sep 17, 2017

ManOfSussex said:
Do you work for HMRC and know how their system operates then?

i have a working knowledge of designing and operating large IT systems. if a system cant deal with this scale of change its been poorly designed. while i accept thats entirely possible for government IT, it isnt a reason for not doing something, it means you should ditch the IT system and get in something better. how about all that red tape though, none existing today?

and what does chap in Hastings do, it wasnt a rhetorical question im interested to know what sort of business that depend on intra-EU trade. there are 5.4million business in the UK, less than 10% of which have direct import/export trade with the EU, yet currently they all have to follow EU red tape. i what McGoven's position was a year or so ago when EU imposed VAT on all digital trades for example.

ManOfSussex · Sep 17, 2017

beorhthelm said:
i have a working knowledge of designing and operating large IT systems. if a system cant deal with this scale of change its been poorly designed. while i accept thats entirely possible for government IT, it isnt a reason for not doing something, it means you should ditch the IT system and get in something better. how about all that red tape though, none existing today?

and what does chap in Hastings do, it wasnt a rhetorical question im interested to know what sort of business that depend on intra-EU trade. there are 5.4million business in the UK, less than 10% of which have direct import/export trade with the EU, yet currently they all have to follow EU red tape. i what McGoven's position was a year or so ago when EU imposed VAT on all digital trades for example.

I agree on the systems bit. Ditching things and getting new ones though takes time and money though. It was The HMRC Chief Executive pointing out system limitations currently and the fact that a new one could take between 5 and 7 years to be in place when he spoke to The Treasury Select Committee last week. Likewise with The Home Office, Settled Status could take 10 years after tendering, testing, allowing for delays etc. The great ID card debacle is the benchmark for Government system ***k ups. God forbid we invoked Article 50 when we were actually ready, but I suppose that would spoil the fun of Brexit and people would get paranoid that a great betrayal of The British people is taking place etc,etc.................

I'm afraid your second paragraph is somewhat difficult to follow, but I think you're making reference to the aforementioned friend of mine - his company manufactures precision engineering equipment. Their markets are solely in The EU as I've mentioned. There is a world out there and being in The EU doesn't hinder them, their client base and geographical position and shipment cost does. I do recall they lost clients in The US though after 9/11 they never got back as US customs checks went a bit mental afterwards and caused hold-ups, but perhaps Dr Liam Fox is going to get US customs to go easy now after they've signed a free trade deal with The Limeys.

I'm sure if you think hard enough you can imagine there are plenty of companies who's overseas markets are solely or largely other EU countries, as they're geographically nearby and we're intertwined with them in the single market, despite the hell of the red tape and Brussels style bureaucracy and political correctness gone completely mad etc that they have to endure. I can. Likewise for countries in The EU who's sole or largest export market is The UK - think Republic of Ireland, just in time food supply etc.

Two Professors · Sep 17, 2017

Trying to book a couple of weeks away to top up the tan,so I thought I'd give that RyanAir a try,as you remainers recommend it so much.It seems that Michael O'Leary isn't as clever as you lot make out.Instead of selling flights,he's cancelling 50 a day,because all his pilots have moved to Norwegian,or are on holiday themselves.Is it some sort of tax wheeze? :facepalm:

Pretty pink fairy · Sep 17, 2017

Tick tock, tick tock ,tick tock
regards
DR

pastafarian · Sep 17, 2017

ManOfSussex said:
My take would be that they simply haven't heard I'm afraid and they're simply not interested or informed on UK or European politics. You're also talking about desperate people, coming from desperate situations in developing countries or fleeing Islamic extremism to come to The UK - the land of milk and honey where they will be welcome with open arms, even if their Muslim.

I'll give you some examples though - I remember when I lived in Africa and was asked about The UK the reaction, pretty much by-and-large when the 'L' word is mentioned was - eyes light up. The streets of London are literally paved with gold to them. It honestly has a mystical status. Everyone's rich - like really rich apparently. It was pointless and insulting talking about and comparing poverty in The UK to them, but if I mentioned homelessness in The UK they wouldn't believe me. I was once accused of lying when I said there are ex-service personnel who served Queen and country sleeping rough. I was told The Queen would never allow such a thing apparently, because no African leader would treat war veterans like that. I was once told France has no black people living there for example, only The UK. I was once asked is Germany rich. I was told Russia is a good country and they like Africans there apparently by one bloke. (That one did make me laugh out loud) What country is Ashley Cole from was another good question...................I think you get the gist.

As for The EU and Schengen, when some people can't comprehend that Manchester Utd and Old Trafford aren't actually in London and when by way of an example I explain that Manchester and London are 2 different cities, about the same difference apart as Harare and Bulawayo, and I'm then asked if Manchester is similar to Bulawayo, you can see my point.

With regard to Schengen I think you are being dismissive of the intelligence of economic migrants, I would say plenty are aware of the borderless zone within the EU and they have a good understanding of it and communicate amongst themselves.The increase in instances of people trying to enter illegally from Zeebrugge, Hook of Holland and Bilbao since the closure of the jungle would indicate they are fully aware how easily they can travel across borders to find new ports of departure.
You do seem to be missing the wider point that these “desperate people” looking for ports to enter the UK are fleeing the safety of Spain, France, Belgium and Holland, and im not sure welcome with open arms really applies to the significant number who enter clandestinely and whose intention it is to stay hidden and work in the black economy, only claiming Asylum when caught or as in some cases not even claiming Asylum, agreeing to removal so they can try to enter illegally again and remain hidden.

Berty23 · Sep 18, 2017

pastafarian said:
With regard to Schengen I think you are being dismissive of the intelligence of economic migrants, I would say plenty are aware of the borderless zone within the EU and they have a good understanding of it and communicate amongst themselves.The increase in instances of people trying to enter illegally from Zeebrugge, Hook of Holland and Bilbao since the closure of the jungle would indicate they are fully aware how easily they can travel across borders to find new ports of departure.
You do seem to be missing the wider point that these “desperate people” looking for ports to enter the UK are fleeing the safety of Spain, France, Belgium and Holland, and im not sure welcome with open arms really applies to the significant number who enter clandestinely and whose intention it is to stay hidden and work in the black economy, only claiming Asylum when caught or as in some cases not even claiming Asylum, agreeing to removal so they can try to enter illegally again and remain hidden.

Do you expect to see a decrease in people entering illegally when we change the law? Isn't the point that they come illegally?

portslade seagull · Sep 18, 2017

Berty23 said:
Do you expect to see a decrease in people entering illegally when we change the law? Isn't the point that they come illegally?

That's one thing that will never stop. It's been happening for year's well ever and successive governments have never got a handle of it and never will. If they are so determined to get here by any means they eventually will

pastafarian · Sep 18, 2017

Berty23 said:
Do you expect to see a decrease in people entering illegally when we change the law? Isn't the point that they come illegally?

No i dont expect to see a decrease at all of illegal migrants, not unless Border Force implements the advice from the Independent review study , economic migrants that wish to enter illegally will continue to use the lack of borders within europe to move around Europe freely and drift from port to port to find a weakness in the system.

Lincoln Imp · Sep 18, 2017

Two Professors said:
Trying to book a couple of weeks away to top up the tan,so I thought I'd give that RyanAir a try,as you remainers recommend it so much.It seems that Michael O'Leary isn't as clever as you lot make out.Instead of selling flights,he's cancelling 50 a day,because all his pilots have moved to Norwegian,or are on holiday themselves.Is it some sort of tax wheeze?

If you are caught out by O'Leary's latest stunt the smidgeon of good news is that you'll be able to claim reasonable compensation. Full details on the EUClaim website. But hurry.

(Another two week holiday eh? Well done you! I seem to remember you managed to squeeze in a trip away from Birmingham just before the end of last season. How on earth do you manage to fit in watching the Albion?)

CHAPPERS · Sep 18, 2017

PM seems to be between a rock and a hard place over this 350 million thing. Boris making a move for the role?

ManOfSussex · Sep 18, 2017

pastafarian said:
With regard to Schengen I think you are being dismissive of the intelligence of economic migrants, I would say plenty are aware of the borderless zone within the EU and they have a good understanding of it and communicate amongst themselves.The increase in instances of people trying to enter illegally from Zeebrugge, Hook of Holland and Bilbao since the closure of the jungle would indicate they are fully aware how easily they can travel across borders to find new ports of departure.
You do seem to be missing the wider point that these “desperate people” looking for ports to enter the UK are fleeing the safety of Spain, France, Belgium and Holland, and im not sure welcome with open arms really applies to the significant number who enter clandestinely and whose intention it is to stay hidden and work in the black economy, only claiming Asylum when caught or as in some cases not even claiming Asylum, agreeing to removal so they can try to enter illegally again and remain hidden.

You may well be right on Schengen. Border checks or not, borders can be porous and crossed if you know how - that's perhaps why that bloke in America is building a wall down Mexico way.

Welcome with open arms does not apply to everyone and I don't know the score in Belgium, France or Spain, but I do know in The Netherlands The Dutch authorities remove all failed asylum cases within 48 hours. Perhaps we're seen as a soft touch on that one, so maybe 'easier' is the better term or phrase than 'welcome with open arms'. For example, I recall a few years ago in Hastings a marriage scam business taking place in a Church of England church no less, and one of those involved was a Ukrainian who entered The UK on a false Estonian passport. He was supposed to be deported after his sentence was finished, but was back living in Hastings about 3 streets away from where he was before?!

There are other pull factors for The UK over other countries - English language, well established ethnic communities already here to name but two, but I do stand by my anecdotal examples of speaking to people in Sub-Saharan Africa - educated people too - on their perceptions of The UK, particularly London, which has a mythical status.

nicko31 · Sep 18, 2017

CHAPPERS said:
PM seems to be between a rock and a hard place over this 350 million thing. Boris making a move for the role?

I remain unconvinced Boris has ever really believed in Brexit

But he is a liar and the ultimate opportunist. The lies worked in the US, why can't it work here, we are in the era of alternative facts

An incredibly intelligent and dangerous man. He would happily sacrifice the country for his own power

Herr Tubthumper · Sep 18, 2017

nicko31 said:
I remain unconvinced Boris has ever really believed in Brexit

But he is a liar and the ultimate opportunist. The lies worked in the US, why can't it work here, we are in the era of alternative facts

An incredibly intelligent and dangerous man. He would happily sacrifice the country for his own power

I'm not convinced he's that intelligent. Scheming certainly.

Garry Nelson's teacher · Sep 18, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
I'm not convinced he's that intelligent. Scheming certainly.

I'm not convinced that Boris believes in anything other than Boris.

GT49er · Sep 18, 2017

pastafarian said:
No i dont expect to see a decrease at all of illegal migrants, not unless Border Force implements the advice from the Independent review study , economic migrants that wish to enter illegally will continue to use the lack of borders within europe to move around Europe freely and drift from port to port to find a weakness in the system.

No, but without the ECJ elbowing in to force us to finance the lifestyle (without working) of the likes of Abu Hamsa (sp?) we can ship the buggers trying to promote a cancer in our society a lot quicker. If we can do that, I'm far less bothered about a few economic migrants sneaking in and, through their hard work, make a living for themselves.

Lincoln Imp · Sep 18, 2017

GT49er said:
No, but without the ECJ elbowing in to force us to finance the lifestyle (without working) of the likes of Abu Hamsa (sp?) we can ship the buggers trying to promote a cancer in our society a lot quicker. If we can do that, I'm far less bothered about a few economic migrants sneaking in and, through their hard work, make a living for themselves.

How widespread has the problem of the ECJ stopping us expelling Abu Hamzas actually been?

Berty23 · Sep 18, 2017

This is ace. Interesting that we celebrate the new EU trade agreement. https://twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/909842997432475653

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