[Politics] Brexit

cunning fergus · Feb 19, 2017

Lincoln Imp said:
Hold on a second. There was a light conversation about Barnsley. I pointed out that all the statistics suggested that the town doesn't have exceptional immigration issues. One of these stats concerned where residents were born. A poster responded in the usual way that I was delusional, stupid and clearly had no knowledge of living in areas subject to significant 'commonwealth' immigration. I took his point to be that the 'where were you born?' question doesn't indicate a great deal in areas where large scale immigration from commonwealth countries occurred more than a generation ago. It's a fair general point but the fact that the 'ethnic white' percentage in Barnsley is unusually high - nearly 98% - shows it doesn't apply to the town we were talking about.

So what are the 'fake news type' statistics you accuse me of?

PS There is nothing wrong in raising the issue of Commonwealth ethnicity but I don't really know why it was done given that this thread is about the EU

I think pointing to the demographics of one area of this country to make a point about their immigration concerns is disingenuous, as its an obvious attempt to belittle the genuine concerns many people have about the change that has taken place in this country in the last 20 or so years, and what it means for them.

For example, you could point to London boroughs that are now less than 50% white British and conclude that these areas are now comfortable with immigration, as you could also point to towns in Essex and deduce that as they are 95% white British they should have no concerns with immigration.

This misses the point though doesn't it........as you well know.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 19, 2017

beorhthelm said:
there isnt any register for anyone in the UK, and therefore there is nothing specific for non-UK citizens. Electoral roll is the nearest thing and you are supposed to register those entitled to vote, but i don't believe its compulsory. for the issue of determining EU citizens in the UK before some cut off date, they could simply ask for evidence of residence, bills, receipts could be used, to cover those that dont have an NI or made contributions in a period.

This answers my question. It's a bit odd they've never kept track of anyone though.

Lincoln Imp · Feb 19, 2017

GoldWithFalmer said:
Feel free to be critical,it was thin and clever.....what was their reasons?

Our Barnsley friend grew up near Oakwell, where his parents worked in the huge glass works. There was also a lot of textile processing in the town, which was surrounded by pits. The closest of the mines was at Dodworth but of the pit wheel I could see no sign yesterday, although there was a smart Holiday Inn with the Albion team coach parked outside. I asked him what had replaced these huge employers and he said 'nothing really, some work for the council but most just scratch around'. New skills have been learnt but he says there is still far too much scratching around. He seems to be right. The town centre was struggling on a Saturday morning, the new development on the edge of the centre deserted. Property values are low; mobility for young married people restricted. Our host loves Barnsley and I can see why. I'm not going to pat it on the head and pity it. In one or two ways it's better than Brighton. But there's a lack of hope, an excess of struggle and a strong feeling that no one in power is doing anything for them, or even listening. Or even knowing they exist.

And that, in his view, is why many people simply wanted to put a middle finger up to the down-South establishment. 23 June gave them an opportunity.

Lincoln Imp · Feb 19, 2017

cunning fergus said:
I think pointing to the demographics of one area of this country to make a point about their immigration concerns is disingenuous, as its an obvious attempt to belittle the genuine concerns many people have about the change that has taken place in this country in the last 20 or so years, and what it means for them.

For example, you could point to London boroughs that are now less than 50% white British and conclude that these areas are now comfortable with immigration, as you could also point to towns in Essex and deduce that as they are 95% white British they should have no concerns with immigration.

This misses the point though doesn't it........as you well know.

You read me diametrically wrongly. I am not attempting - obviously or otherwise - to belittle the concerns many people have about what has happened to our country. I understand the reasons and sympathise with the people who have them. It doesn't mean much but I may have more experience than most on this board of at least one godforsaken northern town. It is a shocking indictment to the useless governments this country has had throughout my lifetime that it has come to this. You and I may have different opinions on the best way forward but we'd both agree that things have gone bad and need to change. The government got its come-uppance on that June Thursday. In one way I am pleased they got a bloody nose but of course I regret the circumstances and what I think will be the consequences. Do not be consumed by the fact that I might vote differently to you - in more ways than you think we agree.

GoldWithFalmer · Feb 19, 2017

Lincoln Imp said:
Our Barnsley friend grew up near Oakwell, where his parents worked in the huge glass works. There was also a lot of textile processing in the town, which was surrounded by pits. The closest of the mines was at Dodworth but of the pit wheel I could see no sign yesterday, although there was a smart Holiday Inn with the Albion team coach parked outside. I asked him what had replaced these huge employers and he said 'nothing really, some work for the council but most just scratch around'. New skills have been learnt but he says there is still far too much scratching around. He seems to be right. The town centre was struggling on a Saturday morning, the new development on the edge of the centre deserted. Property values are low; mobility for young married people restricted. Our host loves Barnsley and I can see why. I'm not going to pat it on the head and pity it. In one or two ways it's better than Brighton. But there's a lack of hope, an excess of struggle and a strong feeling that no one in power is doing anything for them, or even listening. Or even knowing they exist.

And that, in his view, is why many people simply wanted to put a middle finger up to the down-South establishment. 23 June gave them an opportunity.

Thank you and exactly the reply i was hoping for,not to say "oh that fits with remain" clearly Brexit was not all about just that one area,a host of many,and conditions and situations that have allowed it to happen,therefore.....in conclusion.

I was expecting the vote to go 60 Remain 40 leave back in June,had it done so i would have been happy to accept and move on,believing for now at least a golden opportunity had been missed,moving back to the Barnsley situation it's clear that after 40 years of being within the EU,the UK still,maybe because of it's EU membership,or maybe not, has still not resolved the conditions many in the north and all over face themselves in and that is,to some extent living in a situation that offers little chance of change for the better.

If the Eu and our membership was really that wonderful,it would be filtering down far and wide,it does not and has not and for that reason many voted for the anti establishment vote,fair enough i suppose...

Neville's Breakfast · Feb 19, 2017

Lincoln Imp said:
I don't want to be critical but that's really very thin. The clever thing you've done though is to embolden and quote my words 'average number of immigrants from other EU countries' but not the words immediately before them. For the benefit of listeners those words were 'but a fraction of'.

The nice people of Barnsley overwhelmingly put their ticks in the second box on the referendum form and I understand why. As our born and bred host explained to us yesterday though, the reasons weren't much to do with the EU and were nothing to do with immigration. It may have been different in places such as Boston of course.

Your born and bred host said (if I remember your post correctly) that the people of Barnsley voted Leave because they felt left behind by the Southern establishment. How is that not to do with the EU ? For the last 40 years economic incentives in our economy have been framed by EU membership and this has been a lot more influential than whether we get a Labour or Tory Government. Introduction of the Single Market has massively magnified these effects as capital has flowed to wealthy areas and low skilled Labour to poorer areas. This rise in inequality endemic in the economics of the EU leaves people behind. It is happening all over the EU and is leading to a resergence of right wing parties. Barnsley voted Leave, Brighton didn't. It doesn't surprise me.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 19, 2017

Neville's Breakfast said:
Your born and bred host said (if I remember your post correctly) that the people of Barnsley voted Leave because they felt left behind by the Southern establishment. How is that not to do with the EU ? For the last 40 years economic incentives in our economy have been framed by EU membership and this has been a lot more influential than whether we get a Labour or Tory Government. Introduction of the Single Market has massively magnified these effects as capital has flowed to wealthy areas and low skilled Labour to poorer areas. This rise in inequality endemic in the economics of the EU leaves people behind. It is happening all over the EU and is leading to a resergence of right wing parties. Barnsley voted Leave, Brighton didn't. It doesn't surprise me.

I disagree. The London centric UK imbalance is more to do with uk politics than anything else. If you want to reinvigorate areas then the Uk government is best placed to do this. It's decades of governmental neglect which has gotten you to this position. Paradoxically the only body actually investing in some of the neglected areas is the EU.

Neville's Breakfast · Feb 19, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
I disagree. The London centric UK imbalance is more to do with uk politics than anything else. If you want to reinvigorate areas then the Uk government is best placed to do this. It's decades of governmental neglect which has gotten you to this position. Paradoxically the only body actually investing in some of the neglected areas is the EU.

Certainly the EU is investing, they have been very good at infrastructure spending and yet much of the north has still been left behind. Companies look at these areas as sources of cheap and unskilled Labour and some bring their own cheap Labour with them (there was an article in the Times I think about Orgreave just after the referendum that illustrated this point). How can U.K. Governments break this cycle ? Wages cannot be protected other than by the minimum wage which simply attracts more people from other neglected parts of the EU. High skilled jobs cannot be protected from the ability of employers to cross borders to another cheaper part of the Single Market. It is certainly economically efficient and great for wealthy parts of the EU. No-one should be surprised though when it is rejected by those left behind.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 19, 2017

Neville's Breakfast said:
Certainly the EU is investing, they have been very good at infrastructure spending and yet much of the north has still been left behind. Companies look at these areas as sources of cheap and unskilled Labour and some bring their own cheap Labour with them (there was an article in the Times I think about Orgreave just after the referendum that illustrated this point). How can U.K. Governments break this cycle ? Wages cannot be protected other than by the minimum wage which simply attracts more people from other neglected parts of the EU. High skilled jobs cannot be protected from the ability of employers to cross borders to another cheaper part of the Single Market. It is certainly economically efficient and great for wealthy parts of the EU. No-one should be surprised though when it is rejected by those left behind.

All the while high-skilled jobs are created by large corporations no. The government needs to create and encourage medium sized privately owned business; these typically stay local and employ local. This is what you need https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand

Billy the Fish · Feb 19, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
It's decades of governmental neglect which has gotten you to this position. Paradoxically the only body actually investing in some of the neglected areas is the EU.

But does this investment ever actually translate into jobs and wealth for the local population?

This is a very common argument used by remain voters; that areas who received the most in EU subsidies had the highest % of leave voters.
To me it indicates that EU investment doesn't do anything to enhance peoples standard of living. Whatever they are doing is ineffective and most likely the benefits of their investment are outweighed by other factors, but the end result doesn't matter because they can put up a sign with the EU flag on and pat themselves on the back for their regional aid programme. If they didn't waste half of the entire EU budget on CAP then they might be able to afford an investment programme that actually makes a noticeable difference.

pastafarian · Feb 19, 2017

Lincoln Imp said:
To practical issues.

Off to Barnsley shortly and it’s important to get the preparations right. The locals are just as intelligent as everyone else but the stats show that they are a bit less healthy, a bit less happy, a bit more unemployed and a bit less educated than average. They’ve attracted a disproportionate amount of EU investment but have a fraction of the average number of immigrants from other EU countries. Immigration is not an issue - over 96% of residents are UK-born.

The problem is that they appear to love UKIP and hate the EU so much that South Yorkshire police had to tell Remain supporters to stop campaigning before the referendum - the levels of threatened and actual violence against them meant that they couldn’t guarantee their safety.

I’ve bought some tiny St George’s flags to stick over the ‘vile’ EU symbol on the number plate and I’ll avoid having any Albion branding about my person - it might reveal that I come from one of Britain’s strongly Remain-supporting and pro-European cities. I’ve perfected my Lincolnshire accent in case I have to speak in public. Someone gave me a ‘Make America Great Again’ bumper sticker. Would that help?

Mass immigration may not be an issue within the community of Barnsley, but they are a canny bunch and are not blind, im sure they are able to recognise along with 75% of the country that mass migration is unsustainable and needs to be controlled.
But as always you don’t need to live in an area that has been affected by immigration to hold a valid viewpoint on it, contrary to the view of some remainers that you have to be personally affected by something if you dare to use that as a reason for voting leave.

Lincoln Imp said:
And that, in his view, is why many people simply wanted to put a middle finger up to the down-South establishment. 23 June gave them an opportunity.

Lincoln Imp said:
The government got its come-uppance on that June Thursday. In one way I am pleased they got a bloody nose but of course I regret the circumstances and what I think will be the consequences.

Dear Lord you are still desperate to change the narrative and take the blame away from The EU.
Still searching for reasons to validate your view that the vote was unfair......(so lets do it all over again).
The vote wasnt about giving the government a bloody nose,the referendum was to give the EU a bloody nose

Two Professors · Feb 19, 2017

Lincoln Imp said:
I don't feel remotely superior to anyone, and certainly not the people of Barnsley. The only reason it is still being mentioned at all is that some people have tried to argue that black is white, or vice versa.

Wonder if Barnsley are blaming Brexit for losing? :lolol:

jakarta · Feb 19, 2017

Another highly respected Labour Politician weighs in...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39020252

Two Professors · Feb 19, 2017

Blair and Mandelson,dream team-just need Pillock to stick his oar in now for a full house.

Two Professors · Feb 19, 2017

Just noticed it went over 1 Million views while I was away-top bombing :thumbsup:

.Well done everybody (even Gregbrighton!)

Neville's Breakfast · Feb 19, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
All the while high-skilled jobs are created by large corporations no. The government needs to create and encourage medium sized privately owned business; these typically stay local and employ local. This is what you need https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand

Agreed, we need more SMEs but it is quite difficult for them to compete with the global multinationals. There is a balance to be struck between free trade and protectionism that is at odds with free movement of labour and capital. That balance will differ in different countries and yet we have the one size fits all Single European Market.

cunning fergus · Feb 19, 2017

Lincoln Imp said:
You read me diametrically wrongly. I am not attempting - obviously or otherwise - to belittle the concerns many people have about what has happened to our country. I understand the reasons and sympathise with the people who have them. It doesn't mean much but I may have more experience than most on this board of at least one godforsaken northern town. It is a shocking indictment to the useless governments this country has had throughout my lifetime that it has come to this. You and I may have different opinions on the best way forward but we'd both agree that things have gone bad and need to change. The government got its come-uppance on that June Thursday. In one way I am pleased they got a bloody nose but of course I regret the circumstances and what I think will be the consequences. Do not be consumed by the fact that I might vote differently to you - in more ways than you think we agree.

Nope, I think have read you correctly, you clearly stated that as Barnsley is 96.5% white then immigration was not an issue for their high leave vote for Brexit.

Therefore you are making the assumption that areas (like Barnsley) that have a high population of white people a) will not be politically motivated on immigration because it does not affect them where they live or b) should not be politically motivated on immigration because it does not affect them where they live.

You could make the same point about parts of Essex, but we know that in that part of the world there are many hundreds of thousands (if not millions of white ex-east enders and/or their descendants) who would have a view of immigration.

Your assertion that people in Barnsley did not vote out because of immigration but other matters is merely your opinion. Using the demographic of Barnsley to "frank" your opinion is patently disingenuous.

Lincoln Imp · Feb 19, 2017

pastafarian said:
Mass immigration may not be an issue within the community of Barnsley, but they are a canny bunch and are not blind, im sure they are able to recognise along with 75% of the country that mass migration is unsustainable and needs to be controlled.
But as always you don’t need to live in an area that has been affected by immigration to hold a valid viewpoint on it, contrary to the view of some remainers that you have to be personally affected by something if you dare to use that as a reason for voting leave.

Dear Lord you are still desperate to change the narrative and take the blame away from The EU.
Still searching for reasons to validate your view that the vote was unfair......(so lets do it all over again).
The vote wasnt about giving the government a bloody nose,the referendum was to give the EU a bloody nose

Right you are.

GT49er · Feb 19, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
I disagree. The London centric UK imbalance is more to do with uk politics than anything else. If you want to reinvigorate areas then the Uk government is best placed to do this.

Precisely. The UK government, not the EU. That's a good reason, and why many of us voted to leave.

Herr Tubthumper said:
It's decades of governmental neglect which has gotten you to this position.

Yes, neglect because successive governments were too concerned with 'Being at the Top Table' in Europe, exercising power and influence in EU policy making and generally 'Being at the Heart of Europe' (in all of which they largely fell short of their objectives) while all the while ignoring what was going on back home, right under their feet (but outside the M25 to a large extent too!)

Herr Tubthumper said:
Paradoxically the only body actually investing in some of the neglected areas is the EU.

Which doesn't seem to have cut much ice in the areas that voted for Brexit. Perhaps the investment was poorly targeted, or mismanaged, or just didn't trickle down past the people who got first dibs in the trough. Anyway, that's an economic argument, and one thing everyone should have learned from Brexit is that using economic arguments was a loser.

Neville's Breakfast · Feb 19, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
All the while high-skilled jobs are created by large corporations no. The government needs to create and encourage medium sized privately owned business; these typically stay local and employ local. This is what you need https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand

Neville's Breakfast said:
Agreed, we need more SMEs but it is quite difficult for them to compete with the global multinationals. There is a balance to be struck between free trade and protectionism that is at odds with free movement of labour and capital. That balance will differ in different countries and yet we have the one size fits all Single European Market.

I tried to add to my post but was caught by the 30 minute rule.
I wanted to be more specific about the difficulties faced by SMEs when trying to compete with multinationals trading across the entire EU. It's not just access to pools of cheap Labour. In addition there are tax disadvantages and crucially inequality in access to cheap investment capital. SMEs are riskier and therefore pay higher borrowing costs with more stringent default conditions. Banks specifically target and make good profits from this business. This risk premium cannot be legislated away so the only alternative is to remove the unfair competition. We can't do that in the Single European Market.

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