Exodus: Our Journey to Europe - BBC2

Hastings gull · Nov 12, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
The world is always on the move. I doubt you could trace your own ancestry back to Britons, and if you had a DNA test, you would find you are a mixture of backgrounds.
Ann Frank and her family would have lived had the Americans granted their visa application, but they were turned down. Only her father survived out of the whole family, just for being Jewish.

We are not overcrowded in this country. Despite all the NIMBYs fighting over every blade of grass, only 2% of our land is built up with buildings or roads.

I have had foreign students stay in my home, and my life has been richer for it. I love hearing about their traditions and their countries.

Quite why you talk about Anne frank is beyond me. Should the Americans have taken all 6 million killed by the Nazis? And, unlike you, I am half German . . so don't need lectures about DNA. I appreciate you need to talk about foreign students staying temporarily in your home in an attempt to feel good about yourself, but that is hardly the same as taking people in for good. We too have done the same, as have hundreds of people here in Hastings (and all along the South Coast) and I am sure that these folk would not claim to be morally superior, which is clearly your intention.
Your comment about 2%, whilst doubtless true statistically, is very misleading, as I am sure you know. You are suggesting that we could take in millions (as I mentioned in my post to which you are responding) by using the other 98%. This totally ignores questions of infrastructure, costs and public opinion.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 12, 2017

CheeseRolls said:
View attachment 91056

In that 5% is brown field building land.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 12, 2017

Hastings gull said:
Quite why you talk about Anne frank is beyond me. Should the Americans have taken all 6 million killed by the Nazis? And, unlike you, I am half German . . so don't need lectures about DNA. I appreciate you need to talk about foreign students staying temporarily in your home in an attempt to feel good about yourself, but that is hardly the same as taking people in for good. We too have done the same, as have hundreds of people here in Hastings (and all along the South Coast) and I am sure that these folk would not claim to be morally superior, which is clearly your intention.
Your comment about 2%, whilst doubtless true statistically, is very misleading, as I am sure you know. You are suggesting that we could take in millions (as I mentioned in my post to which you are responding) by using the other 98%. This totally ignores questions of infrastructure, costs and public opinion.

I've obviously touched a nerve for you to accuse me of lecturing you. The Americans had room for more than 6 million people. Much more room.

Borders are man made except for seas. These people are human beings, in danger because of labels affixed to them and need help.

Hastings gull · Nov 12, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
What is this, bizarre, obsession some have with people moving in with you? I have seen in on NSC many times. I like my own space and I’d only let a friend or family member move in as a total last resort as it simply wouldn’t work for either of us. If some poor refugee ended up spending 24 hours a day in my company they’d be back on a raft to Syria in no time.

This is not to say I wouldn’t help any friends or family members; as I would.

Some folk like to use the anonymity of the internet to make themselves feel good, and claim that they will do all they can to help refugees/migrants. In practice this virtually always means that someone else should take responsibility for housing them. I share your attitude that we as a family are happy with our home and do not wish to have others on a permanent basis living with us, though would consider a temporary solution it if it were part of a general response to some complete catastrophe. There is nothing wrong with that. I wasn't totally sure of your point, but think this is a reasonable response in agreement?

Hastings gull · Nov 12, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
I've obviously touched a nerve for you to accuse me of lecturing you. The Americans had room for more than 6 million people. Much more room.

Borders are man made except for seas. These people are human beings, in danger because of labels affixed to them and need help.

No no, you haven't touched a nerve at all. Of course there is "room" for 6 million in the US, but with respect, you are being very naïve, if you think it is simply a question of "room". My other post mentioned the issues that one would have to consider. And when would it end? Once the US had taken millions, would not further millions be attracted?

Thunder Bolt · Nov 12, 2017

Hastings gull said:
No no, you haven't touched a nerve at all. Of course there is "room" for 6 million in the US, but with respect, you are being very naïve, if you think it is simply a question of "room". My other post mentioned the issues that one would have to consider. And when would it end? Once the US had taken millions, would not further millions be attracted?

They were attracted. It's only since WW2 that the Yanks have clamped down on green cards etc. How many Albion fans post here on Nsc who are living and working in the USA?

What gives any of us the right to say where people can live and work, or are you one of these people who think all immigrants are lazy and take instead of giving?

Migrants are more likely to be of working age. The majority of migrants come for work or study (students) They may bring dependents, but generally net immigration leads to an increase in the labour force, a decline in the dependency ratio and increases the potential output capacity of the economy.

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6399/economics/impact-of-immigration-on-uk-economy/

Dick Head · Nov 12, 2017

Hastings gull said:
I suppose it was inevitable that someone would want to politicise matters with very simplistic comparisons. The young girl undoubtedly deserves our sympathy and help, but how many are you prepared to help, and we are talking of millions here. How many have you taken into your home? The fact is that we cannot simply keep taking them in, though they might have harrowing stories to tell.

I take it you haven't got any space due to the fact that you have homeless British ex-servicemen staying in your spare room.

cunning fergus · Nov 12, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
They were attracted. It's only since WW2 that the Yanks have clamped down on green cards etc. How many Albion fans post here on Nsc who are living and working in the USA?

What gives any of us the right to say where people can live and work, or are you one of these people who think all immigrants are lazy and take instead of giving?

Migrants are more likely to be of working age. The majority of migrants come for work or study (students) They may bring dependents, but generally net immigration leads to an increase in the labour force, a decline in the dependency ratio and increases the potential output capacity of the economy.

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6399/economics/impact-of-immigration-on-uk-economy/

British citizens resident in Britain have the right to determine (via our democracy) who lives here, if we want to have open borders to the world we will elect a political party to do that, likewise if we don’t want anyone to come here from anywhere else we will elect a political party to do that.

There is the rub, Politicians in this country (and elsewhere for that matter) have for years deceived the public about their policies and the motives behind them. For example they refer to the economic benefits of migrants as if it is a simple binary matter, of course for the rational minded they know it is not binary or simple.

Putting a value on migration is all very well, so long as everything is on the balance sheet. The costs need to be considered with the benefits. Take crime as an example, the U.K. since 2002 has had approx. 10k foreigners in our jails, each one of which costs the taxpayer £150 per day, which is approx. 500m p.a.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04334/SN04334.pdf

The cost of the Police investigation into their crime, prosecutions and court time needs to added to that cost, let’s say that is 20k per crime that is another 200m. Post release there is probation or possibly deportation maybe another 20k per criminal, so that means foreign criminals cost British taxpayers approx 1bn p.a.

But then there are the victims, and what is the cost we should attribute to their experience of crime, assuming they are alive at the end of it. What is the value of say a burgalry, fraud, rape or violent attack on the victim.........it’s a poser isn’t it...........what’s it say in your report?

cunning fergus · Nov 12, 2017

Dick Head said:
I take it you haven't got any space due to the fact that you have homeless British ex-servicemen staying in your spare room.

I have a Grenadier in my box room, an Arificer in the attic, a tail end Charlie under the stairs and 500 Ghurkas in the shed at the bottom of my Garden, this is how we roll in Ealing and Southall.

How many have you got?

Thunder Bolt · Nov 12, 2017

cunning fergus said:
British citizens resident in Britain have the right to determine (via our democracy) who lives here, if we want to have open borders to the world we will elect a political party to do that, likewise if we don’t want anyone to come here from anywhere else we will elect a political party to do that.

There is the rub, Politicians in this country (and elsewhere for that matter) have for years deceived the public about their policies and the motives behind them. For example they refer to the economic benefits of migrants as if it is a simple binary matter, of course for the rational minded they know it is not binary or simple.

Putting a value on migration is all very well, so long as everything is on the balance sheet. The costs need to be considered with the benefits. Take crime as an example, the U.K. since 2002 has had approx. 10k foreigners in our jails, each one of which costs the taxpayer £150 per day, which is approx. 500m p.a.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04334/SN04334.pdf

The cost of the Police investigation into their crime, prosecutions and court time needs to added to that cost, let’s say that is 20k per crime that is another 200m. Post release there is probation or possibly deportation maybe another 20k per criminal, so that means foreign criminals cost British taxpayers approx 1bn p.a.

But then there are the victims, and what is the cost we should attribute to their experience of crime, assuming they are alive at the end of it. What is the value of say a burgalry, fraud, rape or violent attack on the victim.........it’s a poser isn’t it...........what’s it say in your report?

I was burgled three times in a previous house, each time by white Englishmen. Three of them got seven years in jail.
Fraud, most of which is committed by our own 'kind', not refugees or even migrants. I was a civil servant in the Ministry of Justice before I retired.
Stop being so bigoted and try to open your horizons.

BadFish · Nov 12, 2017

Hastings gull said:
It does seem rather ironic that you arrogantly suggest that about others when no one here has a front yard, whatever that is.

Ha ha, thanks for proving my point HG.

Have a think about it HG, I am sure with a bit of thinking you can work out what a front yard is.

Its great to partake in your pompous nonsense once again. I see you are bang on form on this thread.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

cunning fergus · Nov 12, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
I was burgled three times in a previous house, each time by white Englishmen. Three of them got seven years in jail.
Fraud, most of which is committed by our own 'kind', not refugees or even migrants. I was a civil servant in the Ministry of Justice before I retired.
Stop being so bigoted and try to open your horizons.

Ah, a civil servant........things finally make sense.

Anyone that disagrees with you is a twisted bigot.

Of course.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 12, 2017

cunning fergus said:
Ah, a civil servant........things finally make sense.

Anyone that disagrees with you is a twisted bigot.

Of course.

Anyone? No, just those who seek to blame everything on foreigners.

pastafarian · Nov 12, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
What gives any of us the right to say where people can live and work,

If we have no right to decide who can come here to live and work then no doubt you wish to abandon the criminal records certificate that is required to be presented from some non EU nationals seeking a visa to come here, seems a perfectly reasonable request to me as a tool to use when deciding who can come here to live and work? These criminal checks are not done to distinguish between peoples shoe size are they.

cunning fergus · Nov 12, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
Anyone? No, just those who seek to blame everything on foreigners.

Where did I do that.......I accept that 90% of the prison population is British citizens, whether by birth or our new naturalised lot. That’s another cohort of foreigners entirely, only these are foreigners that by taking British citizenship drop out of the nominal foreigners group and are lumped in with the native British.

I suspect some clever civil servant came up with that ruse, I don’t recall a politician ever saying that they were seeking to increase the numbers of British citizens by liberally dolling out British passports to any old Herbert (or Herberta) from the four corners of the world.

As a political policy it’s another poser.

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