412 votes to 149: Parallels between the votes on Iraq and Bexit

Pavilionaire · Jul 7, 2016

yxee said:
So what about that immediate emergency budget Osbourne predicted? Wasn't that project fear?

Talk about lies about saving the NHS- Jeremy Hunt said it would lead to the NHS being "starved of cash".

So don't pretend it was all one-way.

Are you seriously equating a huge message on the Leave campaign bus about an extra £350 million a week for the NHS and Farage's "Australian-style points system" immigration policy with Osborne's emergency Budget threat?

I agree that the Emergency Budget was the low point of a lacklustre leave campaign but whatever the "pull back" scare effect of this was it was blown away by the winning combo of bankrolling the beloved NHS and keeping out the 'nasty' immigrants.

The over-50s and workshy lapped this up in their droves and the rest is history.

GT49er · Jul 7, 2016

yxee said:
So what about that immediate emergency budget Osbourne predicted? Wasn't that project fear?

No, that was project threat. Osbourne flexing his muscles, letting us know he can impose a punitive budget on us peasants if we dared to flaunt his wishes in the referendum.

yxee said:
Talk about lies about saving the NHS- Jeremy Hunt said it would lead to the NHS being "starved of cash".

Again, a threat made by a man who is in a position to actually make it happen.

But yes, still examples of Remainers' tactics.

Brighton Mod · Jul 7, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
I am not saying Brexit is similar to the decision to invade Iraq War, I am simply saying that in both cases the arguments FOR were wilfully misleading to those casting their votes.

I don't see how you can generalise about MPs in the way that you've done. Charles Kennedy gave an impassioned speech to vote against the Iraq invasion and the whole of his Lib Dems party backed him up, as did a quarter of the Labour Party who voted against the wishes of their own leader and PM at the time.

The key word is integrity, i.e. the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles. Chilcott has proved Blair was NOT honest over Iraq and the Leave campaign made decisive claims that were also dishonest - here, I don't dispute that the REMAIN campaign bent the truth here and there but nowhere near to the extent employed by the Leave campaign. Indeed, the fact that some many experts across so many fields were content to endorse Remain is an endorse in part of the integrity of that campaign. Contrast that with the damning lack of experts willing to pen their name to the Leave campaign.

I look across the water and shudder at Trump's Republican nominee campaign. A wall will not be built and paid for by Mexicans to keep them out and Muslims will not be prevented from entering the USA, yet Trump obviously feels he needs to peddle this guff to get the votes he needs. This is what can happen to politics when integrity gives way to the trading of unfettered populist rallying cries with no substance on either side.

Please don't mix 'parliamentary democracy' with democracy. The people voted and most I would think had made up their minds long before the lies started to flow. The Labour party turns on Corbyn for not getting out the labour vote, treating these 'voters' as idiots and sheep. WE mostly took our sides before the arguments started, I struggle to see why so many are so angry and annoyed. Perhaps the intelligent, media, MPs and marchers for a second vote should spent six months on a sink estate, devoid of hope, opportunity, role models, derided for being benefit cheats when big business avoids a thousand times their amount in tax payments and ignored by the political elite, this element of the remain vote would then be truly entitled to be annoyed and angry. How many intellectual remainers have fought, in the military for their country, sent their sons and daughters to war, very, very few. It was these people in the sink estates who sent a message to all the politicians and media circus and still the politicians don't get it. The referendum made them irrelevant and they cant deal with it, they have not taken the warning with infighting and backstabbing, ignoring those whose decision they must act on. My point is proven by the reaction that we see even on this small forum, its between the haves and have nots and the referendum has shaken many to the core.

Brighton Mod · Jul 7, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
Are you seriously equating a huge message on the Leave campaign bus about an extra £350 million a week for the NHS and Farage's "Australian-style points system" immigration policy with Osborne's emergency Budget threat?

I agree that the Emergency Budget was the low point of a lacklustre leave campaign but whatever the "pull back" scare effect of this was it was blown away by the winning combo of bankrolling the beloved NHS and keeping out the 'nasty' immigrants.

The over-50s and workshy lapped this up in their droves and the rest is history.

Your last sentence is so judgemental and based on what, do you know many workshy people, did they tell you how they voted? You my friend appear to be lapping it up that, the reason the vote went to exit was because of these people alone and so many of them lived in England and Wales. They have a vote that has the same value as yours and more exercised it than remain. Spend your energies now on trying to make our country a success and stop moaning about a lost cause, you're looking for groups to abuse and bully and doing yourself no good.

portslade seagull · Jul 7, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
Are you seriously equating a huge message on the Leave campaign bus about an extra £350 million a week for the NHS and Farage's "Australian-style points system" immigration policy with Osborne's emergency Budget threat?

I agree that the Emergency Budget was the low point of a lacklustre leave campaign but whatever the "pull back" scare effect of this was it was blown away by the winning combo of bankrolling the beloved NHS and keeping out the 'nasty' immigrants.

The over-50s and workshy lapped this up in their droves and the rest is history.

With unemployment supposedly around 5% that's around 2m, something doesn't add up.

Pavilionaire · Jul 7, 2016

Brighton Mod said:
Your last sentence is so judgemental and based on what, do you know many workshy people, did they tell you how they voted? You my friend appear to be lapping it up that, the reason the vote went to exit was because of these people alone and so many of them lived in England and Wales. They have a vote that has the same value as yours and more exercised it than remain. Spend your energies now on trying to make our country a success and stop moaning about a lost cause, you're looking for groups to abuse and bully and doing yourself no good.

When a party loses an election they don't hold up their hands and disband, they fight on. I don't see that the 48% should behave any differently. Brexit is an unmitigated disaster, those leaders that brought about Brexit have fled the scene and there is no plan. I will never ever support Brexit and will continue to argue for Remain.

Brighton Mod · Jul 8, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
When a party loses an election they don't hold up their hands and disband, they fight on. I don't see that the 48% should behave any differently. Brexit is an unmitigated disaster, those leaders that brought about Brexit have fled the scene and there is no plan. I will never ever support Brexit and will continue to argue for Remain.

Please continue to argue for remain, but your tilting at windmills, its happened. Why not spend your energy on job creation, volunteering or even mentoring, but don't waste your talent and time on a lost cause.

JC Footy Genius · Jul 8, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
I am not saying Brexit is similar to the decision to invade Iraq War, I am simply saying that in both cases the arguments FOR were wilfully misleading to those casting their votes.

I don't see how you can generalise about MPs in the way that you've done. Charles Kennedy gave an impassioned speech to vote against the Iraq invasion and the whole of his Lib Dems party backed him up, as did a quarter of the Labour Party who voted against the wishes of their own leader and PM at the time.

The key word is integrity, i.e. the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles. Chilcott has proved Blair was NOT honest over Iraq and the Leave campaign made decisive claims that were also dishonest - here, I don't dispute that the REMAIN campaign bent the truth here and there but nowhere near to the extent employed by the Leave campaign. Indeed, the fact that some many experts across so many fields were content to endorse Remain is an endorse in part of the integrity of that campaign. Contrast that with the damning lack of experts willing to pen their name to the Leave campaign.

I look across the water and shudder at Trump's Republican nominee campaign. A wall will not be built and paid for by Mexicans to keep them out and Muslims will not be prevented from entering the USA, yet Trump obviously feels he needs to peddle this guff to get the votes he needs. This is what can happen to politics when integrity gives way to the trading of unfettered populist rallying cries with no substance on either side.

You have highlighted the only vaguely comparable aspect to the Iraq decision and Brexit but not in the direction you claim. Government in both examples used manipulation/spin/exaggerated claims to try and convince the people that their arguments were credible. They also (mis)used 'expert' intelligence sources to convince us the threat was real and imminent. Basically scare us into supporting their position .... sound familiar?

If the key word is integrity Governments should set an example and operate to a higher standard than a rag bag collection of politicians who had to operate a campaign without the state machine and the power to influence/pull in favours from numerous establishment figures/groups both in the UK and abroad. The government made a deliberate decision to go down the tried and tested route of project fear and were more responsible for setting the OTT tone of the referendum campaign which numerous remain advocates conveniently ignore.

Pavilionaire · Jul 8, 2016

Brighton Mod said:
Please continue to argue for remain, but your tilting at windmills, its happened. Why not spend your energy on job creation, volunteering or even mentoring, but don't waste your talent and time on a lost cause.

Why not spend your energy on job creation?? I run an accountancy practice that employs 6 people, including someone from Romania!

Doing what I do it's obvious that for at least 2 years (and probably 10) Brexit will make it harder and more uncertain to conduct business, jobs will go, investment will reduce and there will be pressure on the Treasury to increase VAT, NI and Income Tax.

Pavilionaire · Jul 8, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
The government made a deliberate decision to go down the tried and tested route of project fear and were more responsible for setting the OTT tone of the referendum campaign which numerous remain advocates conveniently ignore.

I don't know whether it was the Leave campaign or the media who came up with the notion of "Project Fear" but it was a campaign masterstroke, lumping together not only crackpot stuff like Osborne's emergency budget but also the opinion of experts about grant funding for education and scientific research being cut, industry relocation from the UK to the European mainland to maintain an EU base, the fracturing of the special relationship with the USA, the weakening of Sterling.

All got tarred with the same brush - Project Fear. Yet whilst Leave ridiculed Cameron and Osborne for peddling Project Fear it does appear there are signs most of it is already happening around us, post-Brexit. The tragedy of the Remain campaign is that they singularly failed to convey the real, tangible "nitty gritty" benefits of EU membership. This is not surprising given that the Tory Party have never been enthusiastic about it since the days of Ted Heath.

Brighton Mod · Jul 9, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
Why not spend your energy on job creation?? I run an accountancy practice that employs 6 people, including someone from Romania!

Doing what I do it's obvious that for at least 2 years (and probably 10) Brexit will make it harder and more uncertain to conduct business, jobs will go, investment will reduce and there will be pressure on the Treasury to increase VAT, NI and Income Tax.

Well if you are an accountant you would have seen the cyclic nature of business, as some grow some reduce. I also employ, Polish, Romanian and Albanian staff and in conversation, one Albanian staff member was an ardent leave campaigner.
If you continue to talk like you are you will go out of business, Job 3.25, 'that which I greatly fear has come upon me'. This will have an effect on your personal life and your business life. Will you be laying any staff off, do you see your business shrinking due to small business not succeeding, or because they using online accounts packages, xero etc. Your real challenge is not coming from us leaving the EU, its coming from technology and the changing world in which we live. Worrying about the UK leaving the EU is a waste of time, its happening, adapt, set out a plan and overcome whatever obstacles that are thrown at you, being in business has never been easy.

Pavilionaire · Jul 9, 2016

Brighton Mod said:
Well if you are an accountant you would have seen the cyclic nature of business, as some grow some reduce. I also employ, Polish, Romanian and Albanian staff and in conversation, one Albanian staff member was an ardent leave campaigner.
If you continue to talk like you are you will go out of business, Job 3.25, 'that which I greatly fear has come upon me'. This will have an effect on your personal life and your business life. Will you be laying any staff off, do you see your business shrinking due to small business not succeeding, or because they using online accounts packages, xero etc. Your real challenge is not coming from us leaving the EU, its coming from technology and the changing world in which we live. Worrying about the UK leaving the EU is a waste of time, its happening, adapt, set out a plan and overcome whatever obstacles that are thrown at you, being in business has never been easy.

Our business has been going since 1971, so before computers. Three recessions have come and gone. I don't need lessons from you.

Brighton Mod · Jul 9, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
Our business has been going since 1971, so before computers. Three recessions have come and gone. I don't need lessons from you.

Quite, so the new challenge of living in a post EU Britain will be taken in your stride as with the three previous recessions. You have answered your own question on the Brexit and your wasted energy used to challenge it. Good luck with the future and from you have said I think you will be just fine outside the EU.

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412 votes to 149: Parallels between the votes on Iraq and Bexit

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