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..and where are the Lib Dems ?



jimhigham

jimhigham

Je Suis Rhino
Apr 25, 2009
7,739
Woking
Green Cross Code Man said:
What a bunch of muppets. Talk about bolting the stable door. Are they unaware of the result of the referendum or do they just not accept the result as they don't like it?
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It's not so unreasonable. Firstly, that has been their position in recent years so it is at least consistent. As regards the result of the referendum, do all parties now have to support "leave" in perpetuity off the back of a relatively narrow victory in a single point in time?

Let us fast forward to November and assume that there is a snap election. None of us knows what the political landscape might be then. The pound might have slumped or it may recover. We may have had bad economic growth figures. The European Commission might flex its muscles and ask for a bare knuckle fight or it might be looking to do a reasonable deal. Who knows? The point is that if we held a further referendum in a year's time we might get an entirely different result based upon the circumstances at play at that time, none of which any of us can foresee now.

I'm not saying that the referendum was unimportant but a political party is quite within its rights to put forward its own position. The LibDems could find traction with those fearful of Brexit by putting themselves up as an unadulterated "remain" party.

We live in interesting times.
 




PILTDOWN MAN

PILTDOWN MAN

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 15, 2004
18,705
Hurst Green
Green Cross Code Man said:
What a bunch of muppets. Talk about bolting the stable door. Are they unaware of the result of the referendum or do they just not accept the result as they don't like it?
Click to expand...

Similar to many on here.
 


joker

joker

BHA Blues Away
Aug 2, 2010
571
Eastbourne
Lib Dems lied about the student fees, making promises they didn't keep, then because they didn't get enough votes, they jumped into bed with the tories, yes let's trust them to be honest and give the electorate what they promise, they can't even make their minds up who or what they want themselves, let alone why is good for the whole of GB.
 


Green Cross Code Man

Green Cross Code Man

Wunt be druv
Mar 30, 2006
19,720
Eastbourne
jimhigham said:
It's not so unreasonable. Firstly, that has been their position in recent years so it is at least consistent. As regards the result of the referendum, do all parties now have to support "leave" in perpetuity off the back of a relatively narrow victory in a single point in time?

Let us fast forward to November and assume that there is a snap election. None of us knows what the political landscape might be then. The pound might have slumped or it may recover. We may have had bad economic growth figures. The European Commission might flex its muscles and ask for a bare knuckle fight or it might be looking to do a reasonable deal. Who knows? The point is that if we held a further referendum in a year's time we might get an entirely different result based upon the circumstances at play at that time, none of which any of us can foresee now.

I'm not saying that the referendum was unimportant but a political party is quite within its rights to put forward its own position. The LibDems could find traction with those fearful of Brexit by putting themselves up as an unadulterated "remain" party.

We live in interesting times.
Click to expand...
By November there will be a new PM, in fact much sooner, and leave negotiations will be underway. Oh, and much like when we were disastrously expelled from the erm, we will be fine. There will be no way back.
 


jimhigham

jimhigham

Je Suis Rhino
Apr 25, 2009
7,739
Woking
Green Cross Code Man said:
By November there will be a new PM, in fact much sooner, and leave negotiations will be underway. Oh, and much like when we were disastrously expelled from the erm, we will be fine. There will be no way back.
Click to expand...

All perfectly possible. You appear to be certain and that's fine. Purely personally I'm not at all certain of anything that might happen in the next 12-18 months. I wasn't looking to score any political points. All I was doing was putting forward a scenario where the LibDems might feel there was an advantage to be had taking up an anti Brexit position.
 




GT49er

GT49er

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2009
46,746
Gloucester
........and where are the Lib Dems ?

Still sulking about the referendum not going their way? They were pretty keen on proportional representation after all ... ... ...
 


C

Cian

Well-known member
Jul 16, 2003
14,262
Dublin, Ireland
Sitting in a corner, giggling a bit, and expecting an influx of a fair few Labour MPs if Corbyn either survives or wins a second leadership election.
 


jimhigham

jimhigham

Je Suis Rhino
Apr 25, 2009
7,739
Woking
joker said:
Lib Dems lied about the student fees, making promises they didn't keep, then because they didn't get enough votes, they jumped into bed with the tories, yes let's trust them to be honest and give the electorate what they promise, they can't even make their minds up who or what they want themselves, let alone why is good for the whole of GB.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree and the tuition fees sellout was a major factor in why I discounted the party at the last general election.

However, just out of interest, who do you feel that we can trust? I'm honestly not being sarcastic. To me it seems pretty much every party has blotted its copybook one way or another over the past decade or so. Labour had the small matter of Iraq. The Tories say we are all in this together but they've spent the last six years trying to eviscerate my terms and conditions of employment. The LibDems we have already discussed. UKIP, having fulfilled their raison d'être, are already climbing down on NHS spending commitments made over the referendum campaign if you follow Farage's remarks. Where do we go if we want trust?

I've voted Green recently as they've not personally let me down yet. That's mainly because they haven't had a chance to, as I don't live in Brighton.
 




Stumpy Tim

Stumpy Tim

Well-known member
Jul 6, 2003
14,031
Back in Brighton. Well Hove actually
joker said:
Lib Dems lied about the student fees, making promises they didn't keep, then because they didn't get enough votes, they jumped into bed with the tories, yes let's trust them to be honest and give the electorate what they promise, they can't even make their minds up who or what they want themselves, let alone why is good for the whole of GB.
Click to expand...

That student fees thing has killed them. Why Clegg didn't just tell his party to abstain I'll never know. Very sad.

Having said that, given this policy I would vote Lib Dems. If they won the election on that platform, is that more or less democratic than the referendum? Interesting position for Fallon to take, and one that could work for him. It's not like they've got much to lose to be fair
 


Green Cross Code Man

Green Cross Code Man

Wunt be druv
Mar 30, 2006
19,720
Eastbourne
jimhigham said:
All perfectly possible. You appear to be certain and that's fine. Purely personally I'm not at all certain of anything that might happen in the next 12-18 months. I wasn't looking to score any political points. All I was doing was putting forward a scenario where the LibDems might feel there was an advantage to be had taking up an anti Brexit position.
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Fair enough. But you have to admit, it would be political suicide for anyone in government to overturn the people's wishes. Quite honestly, I think the EU is intransigent and wouldn't want us anyway. We have always caused it problems and this one will likely turn into something even bigger as pressure rises for further referenda in other EU countries.
 


Green Cross Code Man

Green Cross Code Man

Wunt be druv
Mar 30, 2006
19,720
Eastbourne
jimhigham said:
I don't disagree and the tuition fees sellout was a major factor in why I discounted the party at the last general election.

However, just out of interest, who do you feel that we can trust? I'm honestly not being sarcastic. To me it seems pretty much every party has blotted its copybook one way or another over the past decade or so. Labour had the small matter of Iraq. The Tories say we are all in this together but they've spent the last six years trying to eviscerate my terms and conditions of employment. The LibDems we have already discussed. UKIP, having fulfilled their raison d'être, are already climbing down on NHS spending commitments made over the referendum campaign if you follow Farage's remarks. Where do we go if we want trust?

I've voted Green recently as they've not personally let me down yet. That's mainly because they haven't had a chance to, as I don't live in Brighton.
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I think you make some good points about the death of trustable politicians at the moment. This is a huge problem. It is probably no coincidence that at least some of the leave voters were simply voting against the perceived ruling elite.
 




Seagull27

Seagull27

Well-known member
Feb 7, 2011
3,309
Bristol
Green Cross Code Man said:
They should take 'democrat' from their name as they don't want to respect democracy.

How about Liberal Undemocrats?
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What a ridiculous comment. The job of a political party isn't just to make policies that the majority of the population agree with. Otherwise we'd only ever need one party to represent everyone, with no one representing minority opinions.

And in any case, under our 'democratic' voting system, it is technically possible that if we had a general election tomorrow the lib dems could be elected with 35% of the vote, win a majority and enforce this policy. Even if 52% didn't want it.
 


jimhigham

jimhigham

Je Suis Rhino
Apr 25, 2009
7,739
Woking
Green Cross Code Man said:
Fair enough. But you have to admit, it would be political suicide for anyone in government to overturn the people's wishes. Quite honestly, I think the EU is intransigent and wouldn't want us anyway. We have always caused it problems and this one will likely turn into something even bigger as pressure rises for further referenda in other EU countries.
Click to expand...

I agree it certainly would be right now. I was just suggesting it might not be if it all went to hell in a handcart in the coming months. That's a big if and purely speculation on my part. I'm just a bit of a political junkie and I spend way more time than is healthy speculating on possible scenarios. Good luck to you sir.
 


JC Footy Genius

JC Footy Genius

Bringer of TRUTH
Jun 9, 2015
10,568
Green Cross Code Man said:
They should take 'democrat' from their name as they don't want to respect democracy.

How about Liberal Undemocrats?
Click to expand...

It would appear the Lib Dems are as respectful of the democratic choices made by the majority of citizens in a referendum as the EU. Ignore votes they don't like and keep asking the question until you get the answer you want.

:nono:
 










JC Footy Genius

JC Footy Genius

Bringer of TRUTH
Jun 9, 2015
10,568
Stumpy Tim said:
If they were to win an election then that would also be democratic surely?
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Yes it would be but their position is still blatantly undemocratic. People are asked to vote on the specific question of remaining in the EU, a majority say no so that position should be respected. If at a later date they want to campaign to take us back in fair enough but they are trying to stop it before it happens as there is likely to be a GE before Brexit is finalised. I know they are in a mess/a political irrelevance so are desperate but this is shameful.
 




G

Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,339
Uffern
JC Footy Genius said:
they are trying to stop it before it happens as there is likely to be a GE before Brexit is finalised.
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Rubbish. Article 50 says Brexit has to be finalised within two years - in other words by autumn 2018. The next election is in May 2020.

I really don't see why the Lib Dems position is undemocratic. They're offering a choice to voters and surely that's the democratic right to do so. If people want to vote for it, that's up to them
 




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