ITV Referendum debate

lawros left foot said:

Trade is a very difficult argument to have,at the moment, because nobody knows how it will pan out, I accept we maybe better off, but there again, it could always go tits up, it really is an unknown quantity whatever the politicians say.



One thing that has occurred to me during this conversation, is the fact that more Parliamentary MPs support staying in than leaving, and if, as some say the EU sidelines our Parliament, why is there such a majority in favour of staying in. I would have thought that any curtailment of their powers would be kicked out straight away, but most want to stay in and they can't all be hoping for a Commissioners job, ala Kinnock and Lawson?

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dingodan said:

This is what it comes down to. The EU forces us to spend money on things you agree with, our democratically elected government may (in your view) not have spent that money in the same way. But we control the UK government, we don't control the EU government. So when they force us to spend money on things you disagree with, and say we have a Labour government who has plans you agree with that it cannot implement due to a lack of resources, then maybe you will understand what I am saying. You are chosing a dictatorship which (today) you agree with, over a democracy which (today) has polcy views you don't agree with. But you can change one if you want to. You cannot change the other.

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severnside gull said:

You have a very fair point. A Tiory government would quite probably not willingly put money into supporting the poorer regions when recent history indicates they would rather give more to the already over-wealthy London, the southeast and shires. But hey, that's two-nation Tory politics for you.

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dingodan said:

Right, but my point was that you can get rid of the Tories, try getting rid of an EU government which in future might have different attitudes. Imagine everything you hate about the Tories, and imagine an EU Commission filled with people who are like that, because nobody can say what the makeup of the Commission will be in the future. Today they might be socialist liberals, tomorrow they might not be. Tomorrow the EU Commission might be right wing ultra conservatives, and if that were to happen, unlike a UK Tory Party, you won't be able to get rid.

Surely the important thing is that in 15 or 20 years time we still have the ability to replace law makers when they go against the will of the people. Don't chose today's friendly dictatorship over todays democratically elected UK Tory Government, because they might be reversed one day. You might elect a socialist and liberal Uk Government only to find it cannot do a thing to stop the new "Tory like" EU Commission. Do you see my point?

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dingodan said:

Right, but my point was that you can get rid of the Tories, try getting rid of an EU government which in future might have different attitudes. Imagine everything you hate about the Tories, and imagine an EU Commission filled with people who are like that, because nobody can say what the makeup of the Commission will be in the future. Today they might be socialist liberals, tomorrow they might not be. Tomorrow the EU Commission might be right wing ultra conservatives, and if that were to happen, unlike a UK Tory Party, you won't be able to get rid.

Surely the important thing is that in 15 or 20 years time we still have the ability to replace law makers when they go against the will of the people. Don't chose today's friendly dictatorship over todays democratically elected UK Tory Government, because they might be reversed one day. You might elect a socialist and liberal Uk Government only to find it cannot do a thing to stop the new "Tory like" EU Commission. Do you see my point?

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severnside gull said:

I entirely see your point and whilst I could counter it by wheeling out the United States of Europe ideal I am still very much a child of the fifties brought up to believe in national pride and sovereignty. I'm sure I'm far from the only one though who believes that a pan European state will never exist and that national issues will invariably prevail in most things. However once you join the club there are dangers in pulling out. I have barely spoken to anyone in Spain, France, Belgium or Holland in recent weeks while travelling who doesn't back the EU to punish a brexit by playing hardball on every possible issue. Now of course we know that won't necessarily influence politicians who don't usually give a toss about voters beyond one month every five years, but it just might. Indeed for all the Leave camp's assurances to the contrary pretty much everyone else everywhere thinks we could be royally screwed.
So I come to the position that it might be least disadvantageous to remain and try to effect change from within. The downright lies (in my much too often stated view) of Gove-Johnson & Co merely affirmed that putting any trust in politicians to be anything other than self-serving would be foolish in the extreme.

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severnside gull said:

I entirely see your point and whilst I could counter it by wheeling out the United States of Europe ideal I am still very much a child of the fifties brought up to believe in national pride and sovereignty. I'm sure I'm far from the only one though who believes that a pan European state will never exist and that national issues will invariably prevail in most things. However once you join the club there are dangers in pulling out. I have barely spoken to anyone in Spain, France, Belgium or Holland in recent weeks while travelling who doesn't back the EU to punish a brexit by playing hardball on every possible issue. Now of course we know that won't necessarily influence politicians who don't usually give a toss about voters beyond one month every five years, but it just might. Indeed for all the Leave camp's assurances to the contrary pretty much everyone else everywhere thinks we could be royally screwed.
So I come to the position that it might be least disadvantageous to remain and try to effect change from within. The downright lies (in my much too often stated view) of Gove-Johnson & Co merely affirmed that putting any trust in politicians to be anything other than self-serving would be foolish in the extreme.

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Soulman said:

In other words stay in and be bullied and have decisions made for us.....or vote out and be bullied. I am not keen on this EU superstate, not nice eh.

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severnside gull said:

No. Stay in. Refuse to be bullied. And exert influence.

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dingodan said:

Do you really think anyone should stay in a relationship which they want to leave, because they fear what the other party to the relationship will do in retaliation? That kind of thing should scream at you that this is not a relationship which you want to be in. Who needs enemies if you have friends like that. I don't believe there will be retribution, it would be cutting of their nose to spite their face, it's threats because they don't want us to leave, but I think it only affirms the very ugly position we have found ourselves in by allowing this relationship to develop in this way.

It also does not really address my point. I'm repeating myself, but imagine a Cameron, Gove, Johnson like EU Commission. What will you be saying when they pass down their policies which must be obeyed? What will you say when your newly elected Labour leader says, "sorry, there is nothing we can do"? I can only imagine that you will say, "damn, should have voted to leave." But it will be too late by then. Today you have a Tory government which you clearly detest, but which you can also sack. Don't allow yourself to have the same kind of government tomorrow, which you cannot get rid of no matter what you do.

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severnside gull said:

I think if you are better off in a relationship you might be better off staying and working to improve it. We are far from alone in the EU in wanting to do that. It's our tactics that invariably lose us support not our reasoning

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dingodan said:

I really thought you would come around at the thought of a Boris, Gove and Cameron Commission who were never elected and who you cannot sack. If that doesn't convince you, I guess nothing will.

Don't say you weren't warned.

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Bold Seagull said:

I believe in Europe, I can't help it. I feel European, I like being European. The EU is like supporting a crap football team, like having Sami Hyypia and David Burke running things, I didn't like it, but I still went every week. I didn't just give up my season ticket and go and support someone else. The EU is something that I'd like to see improve, evolve and be a force for good both for its members and the greater good. It's not cut and dry for me, I do understand and have concerns of the Brexits, I'm not actually fearful of leaving as such, but like I said, I do like the union we have with our neighbours, it might be naive but I'll be voting stay in hope that it does become something better with us at it's heart.

As a school governor we've had 'British Values' in the curriculum this last year and it's something we've worked on in school. That has manifested itself in a celebration of how outward looking Great Britain has always been. Explorers, inventors, we've spread our ingenuity, our willingness to share, to improve, to welcome and embrace. This to me is what Britishness is. Regardless of the wrongs of the EU as it currently stands, it goes against my own pride as a British citizen to suddenly look inward, rather than out. I want to be at the heart of Europe, not outside it, not isolated. We've always wanted to be in Europe, it is part of our history.

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DataPoint said:

I feel your passion but I think your mistaken - I want to be at the heart of the World, not isolated in one corner of Europe. No country in modern history has contributed more to the advancement of human progress than the UK. This is where we belong - this is what we do! It's our instinct. I don't know why? It just is.

I love Europe and all Europeans - fabulous countries, fabulous cultures - but I don't want to be tied to them, I'm too free sprited. I want to work and co-operate with every nation on this planet in resolving all the problems that face us - but as a free country again!

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