It doesn't have to improve on the UK system it's a separate and different system. If the UK is outvoted in the EU parliament then that too is democratic. It's like the SNP complaining that Scotland didn't vote for something in Westminster. We may not like it but it doesn't have zero legitimacy.
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How much is the Referendum Campaign influencing you?
- Thread starter Lord Bracknell
- Start date
It doesn't have to improve on the UK system it's a separate and different system. If the UK is outvoted in the EU parliament then that too is democratic. It's like the SNP complaining that Scotland didn't vote for something in Westminster. We may not like it but it doesn't have zero legitimacy.
I think most parents are aware that their children don't always want to go to school, yes.
Yeah, that's not a good thing.
I'm not sure if it's a good or a bad thing. I'm open minded enough to have considered all the facts and made a decision that I'm comfortable with though. I very much hope we stay IN.
Pray, tell me why it's not a good thing?
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sussex_guy2k2
Well-known member
- Jun 6, 2014
- 3,752
What I'm saying is that both establishments are deeply flawed. We can go from Labour to Conserative, and back, then back again, continuously for the next 100 years if we choose. But as things stand, they're our only options because our own democracy is fundamentally flawed. The fact of the matter is that I don't vote for the Prime Minister, or even the party that controls our country. I vote for one MP, as we all do. Leaving the EU won't change that. I won't have anymore power as a voter than I currently have. And that's because OUR system is an even bigger issue.
Until that changes, the democratic argument for leaving the EU is totally and utterly mute. If the politicians in this country were that serious about giving voters more power, they'd change the voting system before this referendum takes place. But that argument hasn't even come up because if we leave, the people that gain the most are those in political power in the UK.
JC Footy Genius
Bringer of TRUTH
- Jun 9, 2015
- 10,568
Any loss of democratic accountability and sovereignty from the UK should at the very least improve democratic accountability.
You should use that as a Remain campaign slogan ... Vote Stay we have the same democratic voice as the SNP.
sussex_guy2k2
Well-known member
- Jun 6, 2014
- 3,752
Yes, because the Labour Party have never lied... And you do know we're the fifth biggest economy in the world, despite the recession that Labour gave us and left us with by 2010. People have short memories.
JC Footy Genius
Bringer of TRUTH
- Jun 9, 2015
- 10,568
Ah, you mean the GLOBAL financial crisis, rooted in the WORLD-WIDE subprime mortgage selling.. that the Labour government was single handedly responsible for?!
That should tell you something
It certainly does!
Only positive things, actually!
sussex_guy2k2
Well-known member
- Jun 6, 2014
- 3,752
You do know there are still unelected members of the House of Lords right? That sounds totally democratic...
And what's your point? That UK voting patterns are more right wing now after the awful mess that Labour left us in?
And my point, as per my reply to the other person, is that I don't trust a) our own system, and b) the people that benefit from our own undemocratic system. Until the flaws in our own system are sorted, I don't see any benefit to myself as a voter in leaving the EU for democratic reasons as my vote will be as mute and inconsequential as it is if we stay in.
sussex_guy2k2
Well-known member
- Jun 6, 2014
- 3,752
But the Conservatives are no doubt not responsible at all for our growth into the fifth biggest economy in the world? Nor is our place within the EU?
Actually I think it's more complicated than Labour did bad things to the economy and the tories did good things. If pushed, I'd say the austerity measures the current government gleefully passes on to those who can afford it least doesn't do our economy any good in the long term - but now we're getting really off topic.
"Vote remain, towards more perfect union" (JK)
JC Footy Genius
Bringer of TRUTH
- Jun 9, 2015
- 10,568
True the House of Lords is unelected but at least it is only concerned with amending legislation in the best interests of one nation , ours, not 28.
My mistake, I mistook your argument as anti UK establishment therefore left of centre.
I can understand your mistrust of the people who benefit from the floors in our system but it is worth noting they want you to vote Remain.
Was the the soaring oratory and searing insight displayed in the NSC threads that swayed you?
larus
Well-known member
I agree that the UK voting system is unfair. For example, UKIP won 14% of the popular vote and has 1 MP. SNP 4% and 49 MPs I think. So yes, it's wrong. However, if this gets to be a big enough political issue it could change. What won't change in the EU is the power retained by the political elite who aren't elected.
So, are you happier in a EU where you don't get a real vote (as the power is with the elected Commission), or in an independant UK with a voting system which is flawed? In my opinion, there EU is a way for the elite to control a huge number of people yet be totally unaccountable. That is far, far worse than being in an independant country with a system which would benefit from reform.
Regrettably, no. It was a decision borne out of my own research.