Deadly Danson
Well-known member
I'm not going to link directly but should you wish to look at Confessions of a train crew on Facebook the letter is there in all its bullying, hateful, spiteful glory.
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Southern Rail STRIKE details
- Thread starter Ernest
- Start date
I'm not going to link directly but should you wish to look at Confessions of a train crew on Facebook the letter is there in all its bullying, hateful, spiteful glory.
I used to commute with southern for nearly 4 years . whenever I was sat near the carraige that has the toilet with the bike storage area /space for people on wheelchairs/mobility scooters,the conductor was always there to assist disabledpeople on and off the train using the ramps that they have to manually place on the platform. So unless southern plan to have new trains with automatic ramps, I don't see how disabled people will be able board/depart the train at small stations like aldrington without help from the conductors...
Last edited:
Deadly Danson
Well-known member
Deadly Danson
Well-known member
Yep, no longer would disabled people be able to just turn up. And people on here still think this is all union mischief.
You didn't go through King's Cross yesterday did you? I love seeing Albion fans in Cambridgeshire!
Your point about Great Northern running DOO - that arrangement comes before a time where our railway was packed. Kings Cross is also less busy than Victoria and the Thameslink Core. Go to the Moorgate branch, the trains are so busy that I dread to think what will happen once something goes wrong.
Ernest
Stupid IDIOT
- Thread starter
- #86
To All Our Customers
We feel it is important to explain to you, our customers, why we are in dispute with GTR and why we have been forced into taking strike action this week.
GTR have decided that from the 31st of July they intend to run all rolling stock fitted with in-cab CCTV without a second safety critical person on board. This involves services not just on the Brighton Mainline but on the East and West Coastway the Mid-Sussex line and other services.
GTR claim their reasons for making the changes is so that Conductors will be highly visible and can concentrate on customer service rather than spending time on safety critical responsibilities.
They also make the assertion that running services under Driver Only Operation does not compromise customer safety.
The real reason GTR are making these changes is somewhat different to their stated goals.
Under the terms of their franchise / management contract GTR are in line for a large bonus if they meet their targets for reducing ticketless travel and on the face of it a reduction in ticketless travel is a move which the majority of the travelling public would view positively. However, the way GTR intend to achieve their goal will be appreciated much less by the travelling public. It will NOT be those that travel on the network without any intention of paying that will be targeted. They are left alone as it is not viewed as cost effective to target them.
It will be the HONEST passengers who will be targeted to achieve this ticketless travel goal and ensure GTR get their bonus.
It will be the passengers that Conductors at present provide with customer service that will be penalised under this initiative. The passengers who we as Conductors take delight in helping, the customers who due to their busy lives have to board a service without a ticket, the customers who find themselves stuck in a queue at the ticket office or the customer young and old alike who have problems with the ticket vending machines. All of whom require us to sell them a ticket and always fully intend to pay for their tickets. These customers are not fare dodgers, they are not part of the don't pay won't pay grouping. They are customers who deserve to be looked after and sold the cheapest most appropriate ticket for their journey, something Conductors do for them on a daily basis.
This will all change under GTR plans to grab their bonus payment. Three hundred Conductors changed from safety critical, customer focused roles into On Board Supervisors who will be, in essence, lone working Revenue Protection Officers.
This means that they will be expected to sell full priced single / return tickets unless under exceptional circumstances. They will issue penalty fares rather than offer customer service. This means that they will not be on many services that they are booked to work because clearly if they have to leave the service to complete a penalty fare the service will have to continue without them. They will be less visible, not more visible, as they will have to issue penalties to customers which means that they will cover less of the train. Due to working alone they will not deal with individuals who resist payment. The focus will be on penalising honest customers who are prepared to pay. To encourage staff employed in the new role to sell full priced tickets as opposed to the cheapest / most appropriate for the journey GTR have altered the way the new role will receive commission for ticket sales. At present a Conductor gets a small commission on any tickets sold ( 5% ). Under the new role, commission will only be paid on full priced tickets sold. The Conductor role at present ensures a second safety critical person is on board your service, ensures that your travel / ticketing requirements are dealt with and that on most occasions the entire train is patrolled which has added significance in this era of heightened security concerns. This focus on safety and customer care is lost in the new role.
The operation of more trains over the network on Driver Only Operation mode is viewed by many as a retrograde step for rail safety. The company point out that Metro services and some Brighton Mainline already operate as Driver Only Operation already. This is true but these services were introduced many years ago when the volume of passengers was much lower than it is today, with the increased passenger flow meaning busier trains and stations Driver Only Operation should come under scrutiny in these areas. The platform train interface at stations is recognised as the most dangerous area on the railway. Removing the Conductor from the despatch process poses an unacceptable risk. The Drivers concentration should only be on the driving of the train not trying to cover duties which are the responsibility of the Conductor, the second safety critical person on board these services at present. The train drivers union ASLEF and our own union the RMT have signed a joint agreement opposing the introduction of any further Driver Only Opereation services on safety grounds .
GTR attempting to force through Driver Only Operation on the East/West Coastway and Arun Valley services has the added safety risk that these routes are intersected by many road and farm crossings. To introduce Driver Only Operation in areas of a network which has a rapidly increasing volume of passengers and the additional hazards of road/farm crossings should not be seen as an acceptable risk .
To put the responsibility for the safety and welfare of many hundreds of passengers down to the driver of the train should not be seen as either a desirable or safe method of work. During normal operation there will be no one there to help customers with the issues that Conductors deal with every day on their behalf. This ranges from customers who require help because they are taken unwell or who feel threatened and vulnerable through to customers who just require help purchasing a ticket or travel advice for their onward journey. This is before we consider the adverse effect this will have on the visually impaired, those with mobility issues who require a ramp to be deployed to allow them to board services, the elderly who require a helping hand on and off our services, mothers/fathers requiring help with prams and buggies, etc., etc. Customers must be able to travel at the time of their choosing assured of the fact that there will be someone there to assist them in whatever way is required. When services are involved in incidents on the line i.e. a collision at a crossing, suicides on the line, fire on the train, fighting /disruptive passengers on the train, customers falling under the train at an un-staffed platform etc., the driver is meant to deal with these issues alone and if anything happens to incapacitate the driver, be that due to an incident or health issue, or he has to leave the train to carry out protection off the line then there will be no one on board to look after the safety and welfare of the customers.
Driver Only Operation should not be seen as the preferred method of operation just because it is the cheapest and frees up the Conductor Grade to become non safety critical on board supervisors targeting ticketless travel.
Conductors held a democratic ballot to fight these proposals. The result of the vote was an overwhelming endorsement for industrial action . An endorsement that far exceeded the requirements proposed in the present legislation under consideration by the government (321 votes cast with 306 voting for strike action)
The companies response to this democratic vote has not been to try and address the very real concerns of Conductors, rather they have sent out letters stating that they will withhold two days pay for each day of strike action and remove parking permits and travel facilities from Conductors and our families .
I hope you can see that taking this strike action comes at great cost to individual Conductors and their families and has not been a decision anyone has taken lightly.
This is not a dispute about wages or self interest.
It is a dispute about the future direction of the railway and to ensure that it is kept safe and welcoming for you and your families .
We hope you will be able to offer support by adding your pressure to GTR to amend these ill-conceived proposals .
Yours faithfully
Southern Conductors
We feel it is important to explain to you, our customers, why we are in dispute with GTR and why we have been forced into taking strike action this week.
GTR have decided that from the 31st of July they intend to run all rolling stock fitted with in-cab CCTV without a second safety critical person on board. This involves services not just on the Brighton Mainline but on the East and West Coastway the Mid-Sussex line and other services.
GTR claim their reasons for making the changes is so that Conductors will be highly visible and can concentrate on customer service rather than spending time on safety critical responsibilities.
They also make the assertion that running services under Driver Only Operation does not compromise customer safety.
The real reason GTR are making these changes is somewhat different to their stated goals.
Under the terms of their franchise / management contract GTR are in line for a large bonus if they meet their targets for reducing ticketless travel and on the face of it a reduction in ticketless travel is a move which the majority of the travelling public would view positively. However, the way GTR intend to achieve their goal will be appreciated much less by the travelling public. It will NOT be those that travel on the network without any intention of paying that will be targeted. They are left alone as it is not viewed as cost effective to target them.
It will be the HONEST passengers who will be targeted to achieve this ticketless travel goal and ensure GTR get their bonus.
It will be the passengers that Conductors at present provide with customer service that will be penalised under this initiative. The passengers who we as Conductors take delight in helping, the customers who due to their busy lives have to board a service without a ticket, the customers who find themselves stuck in a queue at the ticket office or the customer young and old alike who have problems with the ticket vending machines. All of whom require us to sell them a ticket and always fully intend to pay for their tickets. These customers are not fare dodgers, they are not part of the don't pay won't pay grouping. They are customers who deserve to be looked after and sold the cheapest most appropriate ticket for their journey, something Conductors do for them on a daily basis.
This will all change under GTR plans to grab their bonus payment. Three hundred Conductors changed from safety critical, customer focused roles into On Board Supervisors who will be, in essence, lone working Revenue Protection Officers.
This means that they will be expected to sell full priced single / return tickets unless under exceptional circumstances. They will issue penalty fares rather than offer customer service. This means that they will not be on many services that they are booked to work because clearly if they have to leave the service to complete a penalty fare the service will have to continue without them. They will be less visible, not more visible, as they will have to issue penalties to customers which means that they will cover less of the train. Due to working alone they will not deal with individuals who resist payment. The focus will be on penalising honest customers who are prepared to pay. To encourage staff employed in the new role to sell full priced tickets as opposed to the cheapest / most appropriate for the journey GTR have altered the way the new role will receive commission for ticket sales. At present a Conductor gets a small commission on any tickets sold ( 5% ). Under the new role, commission will only be paid on full priced tickets sold. The Conductor role at present ensures a second safety critical person is on board your service, ensures that your travel / ticketing requirements are dealt with and that on most occasions the entire train is patrolled which has added significance in this era of heightened security concerns. This focus on safety and customer care is lost in the new role.
The operation of more trains over the network on Driver Only Operation mode is viewed by many as a retrograde step for rail safety. The company point out that Metro services and some Brighton Mainline already operate as Driver Only Operation already. This is true but these services were introduced many years ago when the volume of passengers was much lower than it is today, with the increased passenger flow meaning busier trains and stations Driver Only Operation should come under scrutiny in these areas. The platform train interface at stations is recognised as the most dangerous area on the railway. Removing the Conductor from the despatch process poses an unacceptable risk. The Drivers concentration should only be on the driving of the train not trying to cover duties which are the responsibility of the Conductor, the second safety critical person on board these services at present. The train drivers union ASLEF and our own union the RMT have signed a joint agreement opposing the introduction of any further Driver Only Opereation services on safety grounds .
GTR attempting to force through Driver Only Operation on the East/West Coastway and Arun Valley services has the added safety risk that these routes are intersected by many road and farm crossings. To introduce Driver Only Operation in areas of a network which has a rapidly increasing volume of passengers and the additional hazards of road/farm crossings should not be seen as an acceptable risk .
To put the responsibility for the safety and welfare of many hundreds of passengers down to the driver of the train should not be seen as either a desirable or safe method of work. During normal operation there will be no one there to help customers with the issues that Conductors deal with every day on their behalf. This ranges from customers who require help because they are taken unwell or who feel threatened and vulnerable through to customers who just require help purchasing a ticket or travel advice for their onward journey. This is before we consider the adverse effect this will have on the visually impaired, those with mobility issues who require a ramp to be deployed to allow them to board services, the elderly who require a helping hand on and off our services, mothers/fathers requiring help with prams and buggies, etc., etc. Customers must be able to travel at the time of their choosing assured of the fact that there will be someone there to assist them in whatever way is required. When services are involved in incidents on the line i.e. a collision at a crossing, suicides on the line, fire on the train, fighting /disruptive passengers on the train, customers falling under the train at an un-staffed platform etc., the driver is meant to deal with these issues alone and if anything happens to incapacitate the driver, be that due to an incident or health issue, or he has to leave the train to carry out protection off the line then there will be no one on board to look after the safety and welfare of the customers.
Driver Only Operation should not be seen as the preferred method of operation just because it is the cheapest and frees up the Conductor Grade to become non safety critical on board supervisors targeting ticketless travel.
Conductors held a democratic ballot to fight these proposals. The result of the vote was an overwhelming endorsement for industrial action . An endorsement that far exceeded the requirements proposed in the present legislation under consideration by the government (321 votes cast with 306 voting for strike action)
The companies response to this democratic vote has not been to try and address the very real concerns of Conductors, rather they have sent out letters stating that they will withhold two days pay for each day of strike action and remove parking permits and travel facilities from Conductors and our families .
I hope you can see that taking this strike action comes at great cost to individual Conductors and their families and has not been a decision anyone has taken lightly.
This is not a dispute about wages or self interest.
It is a dispute about the future direction of the railway and to ensure that it is kept safe and welcoming for you and your families .
We hope you will be able to offer support by adding your pressure to GTR to amend these ill-conceived proposals .
Yours faithfully
Southern Conductors
Beach Hut
Brighton Bhuna Boy
We might be playing Sheffield Wednesday
away on Friday 13th May can they call a truce just in case
away on Friday 13th May can they call a truce just in case
Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 70,204
More realistic comparison than with B&H Buses: would you be happy flying as a passenger in an aircraft with no crew members other than a pilot in a locked cockpit because cabin crew 'do very little on normal days and [air] transport is extremely safe'?
I saw a program about the rail workers in India. If the spods that work for the private rail companies over here paid 1/20th of the attention to their job as they do there'd be no need for all this strike action.
The guards and staff should have spent the effort making themselves indispensable, not being rude to customers paying over the odds. Deserve all they get.
The guards and staff should have spent the effort making themselves indispensable, not being rude to customers paying over the odds. Deserve all they get.
Beach Hut
Brighton Bhuna Boy
If GTR are elevating the conductor to an RPI are they paying them the going rate ?
I would have thought by law GTR must provide assistance for disabled customers
I would have thought by law GTR must provide assistance for disabled customers
They are VERY good though at making inane announcements which are nearly always just a repeat of the automatic ones. There's a couple on the Gatwick Express who treat the journey as a giant audition as they genuinely hope that amongst their passengers are advertising executives who will employ them for voiceover work.
And speaking of the Gatwick Express - who IS responsible for the heating / AC controls? Whenever they're broken if you can find a 'Guard' they either say they're working on it or that it's set by the depot and can't be changed.
Genuine question - what 'safety critical' work does a conductor currently do ?
Not telling you how this was sent or from what device [emoji867]
Not telling you how this was sent or from what device [emoji867]
Deadly Danson
Well-known member
Read the letter on the previous page for full details but apart from the most important aspect of closing the doors and dispatching the train safely, the rest would occur during an incident on the line, safely evacuating the train etc. Much like cabin crew on a plane, when a major incident happens their safety critical training kicks in.
Deadly Danson
Well-known member
The biggest load of rubbish written on this thread. So you're saying because, in your opinion, guards don't work as hard as guards in India they should have safety critical duties taken away from them making the trains less safe? To be honest, these changes actually make the guards jobs easier-these strikes are happening to ensure passenger safety. Once again there is NO dispute on wages.
I certainly agree there should be guards on trains. They need to train them better in customer service though.
So why don't all the LU and DLR (for example) have guards/conductors/revenue enforcement collectors or whatever they are called ? LU trains are far, far busier/more crowded, and DLR trains don't even have drivers. All have automatic doors. It's nothing like a plane......
Deadly Danson
Well-known member
I think I dealt with this on page 3 of this thread. I would add that a 12 coach train is over 100m longer than a tube train. And as I've said before, regardless of what happens elsewhere, if you genuinely think it's safe to have just one driver on a quarter of a mile of train with potentially over 1000 people on board with live rails outside and that in an emergency that driver would, on his own, safely be able to evacuate a train let alone during normal operation help a wheelchair customer on the train, deal with an emergency button being pressed, help with a passenger taken ill or a fight on board or a sexual assault or a fire in coach 12 and look safely down the length of a 12 coach train via fuzzy cctv images to close the doors then we will just have to agree to disagree.
alfredmizen
Banned
- Mar 11, 2015
- 6,342
Tube trains used to, and still should in my opinion.
I haven't disagreed with anything have I ? - As I said, genuine question. I've been commuting on overland and underground trains for 20+ years, just interested.
Based on your post seems as though the conductors are mostly a contingency/resource for emergencies or other special situations. Often wondered how the doors are shut safely at the smaller stations where the platforms are curved and there are no on-platform dispatchers (my own station is like this)
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,312
the procedure for a evacuation is to not do so until power off and support team arrives, and all the other scenarios can be addressed by an on board supervisor. all the letter from RMT has shown is how they dont want a job spec change to include ticket checking, something i and most people probably thought was a core part of the guards role anyway.