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Southern Rail STRIKE details
- Thread starter Ernest
- Start date
I caught one of the new trains home yesterday..... i had hoped for better. The two seat configuration are lacking leg room and incredibly narrow, whilst there are no tables at all. Good news though, there is a flashy display that tells you where the nearest free toilet is and which carriages are busy on a train that you are already on. Not great if you need to work or put a drink down though. Marginally more comfortable than the old 3&2 seat configuration Thameslink trains. Definitely not as comfortable as the newer green/red 2&4 seat configuration trains. Seems like they have designed the trains to make it more comfortable for all the people that need to stand.
elninobonito
Whitehawk Born and Bred
- May 27, 2011
- 652
Some of us don't have a choice! No other way to get from London Bridge to work other than train!
Don't get this. Surely if you want a strike to have maximum impact, you'd have it on days when most people are affected. Would teachers strike on a Saturday for example?
To complain that thousands of people would be affected is missing the point. Union leaders are not employed to boost Brighton's economy, they're employed to get the best deal for their members: I can't see why they should be criticised for doing that
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,312
therein lies the problem of public sector strikes. the right to strike is the right to withdraw your labour, it is not the right to impose inconvenience and obstruction on the rest of the public. the fact that unions have sough to use the effects of strike action as a tool to enhance their position is why they lose popular support. unions and others apparently dont understand that the use of strikes as a PR weapon is massively counterproductive, as we see in the Southern situation where the cause is widely supported (keeping Conductors) but the method is not, leading the the union and members being blamed.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,312
good spot, i should have put public service, not sector. the point still stands, inconveniencing the public is should not be the point of a strike.
Deadly Danson
Well-known member
As tough as it sounds, inconveniencing the public is exactly the point of a strike. I would add that there have only been I think 4 days of strikes so far - Southern don't need strikes to screw up the service.
But it has to be otherwise there's little point. When we had a wave of strikes in the 70s, the people that were hit were the public. When the bakers went on strike, there was no bread for people. When the miners were on strike, there were power cuts. When ITV closed down for several months, there were no TV programmes.
Strikes work by depriving businesses of their customers - if businesses didn't lose money, then there would be little point in striking
There I was coming into Victoria Station on the train. It was almost on time (no complaints there). Then, over the loudspeaker, the guard told us that: "Southern Trains managers will be available on the station concourse if you want to talk to them."
"Wow," said a man next to me with a smirk. "They're brave."
They certainly were, and they were also getting an earful from the travelling public. Even Govia Thameslink's chief executive Charles Horton was there, taking my advice to come down from his office in Monument Street and see for himself.
And I met a manager too, and very nice he was. I won't say who it was in case I get him into trouble. But,as always on these occasions, you only really discover what you think when you hear yourself say it and have to justify it.
Certainly, my conviction that Govia managers actually don't know why their service collapsed from April onwards has been strengthened. Perhaps they do really, but they have an understandable reluctance to discuss it openly. Let me just restate it, in case any of them are reading: it is that, when you require your staff to come in regularly on their days off just to run a normal service, then you have to treat them with some respect.
After talking to many Southern staff that is, for me, the fundamental reason for the collapse - and the police had to be called to close Brighton station during the rush hour as recently as last Thursday. You can read more in my short book Cancelled!.
I felt some sympathy for them, because - like rail minister Claire Perry - they are caught up in a complex series of mistakes that are not all their responsibility, and have very little room for manoeuvre. And because they were talking to passengers then on the station forecourt as if it was just a matter of apologising and trooping on. It isn't. It is too late.
The new transport minister Chris Grayling has to act, if he is not to look like he is still defending fourth rate services. The question is what he will do - and most of the options are pretty unpalatable.
If he sacks Govia from the franchise, who is going o finish the reconstruction of London Bridge Station? What will happen to the shiny new driver-only Class 700 train waiting in the siding? Yet to continue with the franchise as it stands would clearly be a betrayal of customers and it looks like his department will be facing an action anyway for judicial review.
What he ought to do is this (Chris, are you listening)?
1. Hold GTR to the contract to finish London Bridge.
2. Bring forward the date from 2022 when Transport for London takes over their suburban routes.
3. Take over the operation of the Southern franchise using the government's own rail operating company, at GTR's expense, and leave Govia to improve Thameslink and the Gatwick Express. The three together would overwhelm most operators.
4. Insist that Govia's owners Go Ahead fund a repayment of monthly season tickets in return for continuing to consider them for future rail contracts.
5. Guarantee to passengers that staff will be put back on platforms and that guards (let's not call them conductors) will retain some safety responsibilities - so that all trains will have someone other than the driver with responsibility for safe despatch (this will mean changing the way that the Class 700s are actually operated). The idea that it is in customers interests to have an empty machine, not a human railway, has not convinced.
Doing this will involve the Department understanding that they have lost the argument about driver-only operation and train safety (the suggestion which swung it for me was that there is a three second delay on the CCTV screens in the cab, and that they switch off when the driver decides to start - can you comment, GTR?). It is clear that, on most days, their driver only routes - Gatwick Express and Thameslink - are actually the least efficient. That is no coincidence.
It will mean Govia has to understand that they have lost the argument too. There is unprecedented news coverage in the pipeline. The game is up. I'm sorry - because they have tried hard - but it is over and they will have to now accept the decision, either of the government or the courts.
I feel saddest, in a way, for the platform staff - and the guards - who have dealt with the most extraordinary fortitude and humour and loyalty to their company for nearly three incredible stressful months.
Will Grayling take my advice? I'm not sure. But there is something else that needs to be done - and I would organise it myself if someone would offer to pay.
We need a full investigation into what went wrong. The Department doesn't know. The managers don't know. Yet it is clearly a symptom of the way that GTR is managed, a side-effect of the way that privatised contracts have been organised across Whitehall.
It is partly the way Go Ahead operate: their Brighton & Hove bus service is also in the grips of an understaffing crisis.
This is not a critique of contracting out, but it is a critique of the way that successive governments have come to organise it. It means that contracts are won repeatedly by operators like GTR, owned by vast contracting out behemoths like Go Ahead, expert in delivering financial investment and the target results which the Whitehall craves (unaware that they may not mean much), but in the grip of the fantasy that services can be delivered by empty companies, devoid of human content - which have, as a result, a patronising and somewhat punitive relationship with their front line staff, who they regard as an encumbrance.
This is important. It means that Southern has a significance for all public services contracted out on this model. They are the canary in the mine - the small sign that something is terribly wrong.
I am aware of two television companies looking for recent members of Southern staff interested in talking publicly. So let me know if you would like to be involved. I am aware of another film project which is hoping to persuade people to film examples of crush scenes on platforms and in trains on their phones (please film landscape). If you want to do this, please email me and I will tell you where to send the clips.
http://davidboyle.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/southern-railways-is-canary-in-mine.html?m=1#comment-form
"Wow," said a man next to me with a smirk. "They're brave."
They certainly were, and they were also getting an earful from the travelling public. Even Govia Thameslink's chief executive Charles Horton was there, taking my advice to come down from his office in Monument Street and see for himself.
And I met a manager too, and very nice he was. I won't say who it was in case I get him into trouble. But,as always on these occasions, you only really discover what you think when you hear yourself say it and have to justify it.
Certainly, my conviction that Govia managers actually don't know why their service collapsed from April onwards has been strengthened. Perhaps they do really, but they have an understandable reluctance to discuss it openly. Let me just restate it, in case any of them are reading: it is that, when you require your staff to come in regularly on their days off just to run a normal service, then you have to treat them with some respect.
After talking to many Southern staff that is, for me, the fundamental reason for the collapse - and the police had to be called to close Brighton station during the rush hour as recently as last Thursday. You can read more in my short book Cancelled!.
I felt some sympathy for them, because - like rail minister Claire Perry - they are caught up in a complex series of mistakes that are not all their responsibility, and have very little room for manoeuvre. And because they were talking to passengers then on the station forecourt as if it was just a matter of apologising and trooping on. It isn't. It is too late.
The new transport minister Chris Grayling has to act, if he is not to look like he is still defending fourth rate services. The question is what he will do - and most of the options are pretty unpalatable.
If he sacks Govia from the franchise, who is going o finish the reconstruction of London Bridge Station? What will happen to the shiny new driver-only Class 700 train waiting in the siding? Yet to continue with the franchise as it stands would clearly be a betrayal of customers and it looks like his department will be facing an action anyway for judicial review.
What he ought to do is this (Chris, are you listening)?
1. Hold GTR to the contract to finish London Bridge.
2. Bring forward the date from 2022 when Transport for London takes over their suburban routes.
3. Take over the operation of the Southern franchise using the government's own rail operating company, at GTR's expense, and leave Govia to improve Thameslink and the Gatwick Express. The three together would overwhelm most operators.
4. Insist that Govia's owners Go Ahead fund a repayment of monthly season tickets in return for continuing to consider them for future rail contracts.
5. Guarantee to passengers that staff will be put back on platforms and that guards (let's not call them conductors) will retain some safety responsibilities - so that all trains will have someone other than the driver with responsibility for safe despatch (this will mean changing the way that the Class 700s are actually operated). The idea that it is in customers interests to have an empty machine, not a human railway, has not convinced.
Doing this will involve the Department understanding that they have lost the argument about driver-only operation and train safety (the suggestion which swung it for me was that there is a three second delay on the CCTV screens in the cab, and that they switch off when the driver decides to start - can you comment, GTR?). It is clear that, on most days, their driver only routes - Gatwick Express and Thameslink - are actually the least efficient. That is no coincidence.
It will mean Govia has to understand that they have lost the argument too. There is unprecedented news coverage in the pipeline. The game is up. I'm sorry - because they have tried hard - but it is over and they will have to now accept the decision, either of the government or the courts.
I feel saddest, in a way, for the platform staff - and the guards - who have dealt with the most extraordinary fortitude and humour and loyalty to their company for nearly three incredible stressful months.
Will Grayling take my advice? I'm not sure. But there is something else that needs to be done - and I would organise it myself if someone would offer to pay.
We need a full investigation into what went wrong. The Department doesn't know. The managers don't know. Yet it is clearly a symptom of the way that GTR is managed, a side-effect of the way that privatised contracts have been organised across Whitehall.
It is partly the way Go Ahead operate: their Brighton & Hove bus service is also in the grips of an understaffing crisis.
This is not a critique of contracting out, but it is a critique of the way that successive governments have come to organise it. It means that contracts are won repeatedly by operators like GTR, owned by vast contracting out behemoths like Go Ahead, expert in delivering financial investment and the target results which the Whitehall craves (unaware that they may not mean much), but in the grip of the fantasy that services can be delivered by empty companies, devoid of human content - which have, as a result, a patronising and somewhat punitive relationship with their front line staff, who they regard as an encumbrance.
This is important. It means that Southern has a significance for all public services contracted out on this model. They are the canary in the mine - the small sign that something is terribly wrong.
I am aware of two television companies looking for recent members of Southern staff interested in talking publicly. So let me know if you would like to be involved. I am aware of another film project which is hoping to persuade people to film examples of crush scenes on platforms and in trains on their phones (please film landscape). If you want to do this, please email me and I will tell you where to send the clips.
http://davidboyle.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/southern-railways-is-canary-in-mine.html?m=1#comment-form
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,312
im not denying it has an impact on management thinking, im highlighting that this is were the conflict between union rights and public rights comes in. if the sole purpose of action is to inconvenience the public/customers then dont be surprised when they dont support the action or cause behind the action. going back the original point, if the unions do strike on the day of Pride, they will have a substantial backlash from that community deprived of their event, who'll blame the union action not Southern. is maximum impact worth the negative public relations? i'd have thought unions would want to find a balance between making it difficult for management while keeping people on their side.
Cosmic Joker
The Motorik
You seem to have confused two separate things here; London Bridge reconstruction is strictly a Network Rail project. As are all other station, track and signalling infrastructure projects on the railways. GTR's only involvement in the London Bridge project is to (attempt to) operate a train service in and out of it using the platforms, track and signalling which Network Rail provide to them through the different phases of the works. In fact the part of the station used by Southern and the truncated Thameslink London Bridge services is largely finished apart from opening the new below-platform concourse. GTR services are now largely constrained by the project only by passing through the two track section where the new diving junction at Bermondsey comes in and by not being able to send Thameslink trains through to Blackfriars. The part of London Bridge where most remaining work is happening now is the platforms used by Southeastern. (also a Go-Ahead company but not part of GTR). GTR have to manage their timetable to cope with the reduced track capacity between New Cross Gate / South Bermondsey and the terminal platforms at London Bridge, but that was largely worked through by late spring last year. The more recent cuts to services are to do with Southern's staff and train stock shortages. Completing the infrastructure works is entirely down to Network Rail and appears to be happening on time. Much of the track capacity will be restored later this year when an extra line through the new Bernondsey junction opens.
As for the new class 700 Thameslink trains, if GTR was removed from the franchise (management contract) then the trains and the rail staff would simply be transferred over to Directly Operated Rail or the next franchise holder.
NB One other thing you missed is the ticket office staff, who GTR are also planning to massively slash in number/redeploy which is also greatly unpopular with staff and passengers, but has been swept under the carpet by the train crew / service issues.
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Boy Blue
Banned
- Mar 14, 2016
- 766
Complete joke today. Cycled into Shoreham and wanted to visited the club shop, arrived at Shoreham station at 10.50am and 7 cancellations and managed to catch the 11.47am to Brighton.
Arrived in Brighton and walked to the far flatform to Falmer and nothing, the staff didn't know **** all so headed back to Shoreham and waited 40 minutes as yet again cancellations. Feel sorry for the commuters who rely on the enapt service.
Arrived in Brighton and walked to the far flatform to Falmer and nothing, the staff didn't know **** all so headed back to Shoreham and waited 40 minutes as yet again cancellations. Feel sorry for the commuters who rely on the enapt service.
Stuart Munday
Well-known member
Train stuck at Hassocks going North, shambles and it's a new one.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,312
i thought this is a bit of an odd omission too. and also the inclusion of platform staff reductions, first ive heard of this, which is where the ticket office staff are being redeployed. the ticket office closures are apparently going ahead with almost no remark from any quarter.
Mr Bronson
Member
- Feb 24, 2009
- 45
Sorry if this has been mentioned but had anyone noticed the appearance of blue overalled security staff at Haywards Heath station? At 6.30 I don't often see southern staff on the platform but there's frequently security.
They had them there when the works were going on, but noticed this recently too.
Also at Clapham Junction today cramming people on trains
Train was cancelled this morning - staff sickness apparently
Carnage at London Bridge this evening due to power supply problems at Gatwick - loads of train cancellations
Another shite day with an extra hour+ of travelling time
Carnage at London Bridge this evening due to power supply problems at Gatwick - loads of train cancellations
Another shite day with an extra hour+ of travelling time