Yeah, but at least the trains were actually stopping at Falmer then and you knew you'd get there at some stage. I was more worried about the 'safety implications' of thousands of disgruntled punters being told, "Sorry there are no trains to Falmer AT ALL. Please leave the station and seek alternative means of transport, and yes you're right, we don't give a shit"
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Southern Rail STRIKE details
- Thread starter Ernest
- Start date
Yeah, but at least the trains were actually stopping at Falmer then and you knew you'd get there at some stage. I was more worried about the 'safety implications' of thousands of disgruntled punters being told, "Sorry there are no trains to Falmer AT ALL. Please leave the station and seek alternative means of transport, and yes you're right, we don't give a shit"
At a guess they haven't organised the stewards that they normally have now for the queuing system. So can't be arsed to set it up at this late stage easier just to let someone else deal with the problem all they care about are commuters from London.
I think you will find they dont give a toss about passengers ,commuters full stop !
Can't argue with that
This is from the guardian
"Part of the problem is that the government has an ideological move to get rid of guards on trains (and also remove platform dispatch staff and close ticket offices at the same time), in order to crush the RMT union - and also to push all liability (and prosecutions) for passenger accidents on the platform onto drivers (the one grade they can't get yet get rid of), in an attempt to weaken ASLEF morale, and also deflect any blame from managers . It appears to me that Southern management (as idiotic and useless as they are) are just doing the bidding of the Tories, and being used as a convenient scapegoat.
The guards' dispute is much much more complicated than is made out in the media, where it is described as "who presses a door close button". In reality the main issue is "who is liable for train dispatch from platforms" - which is a safety critical activity, which if not done properly, can lead to injury and death - and significant jail terms for rail staff, let alone dismissal and loss of pension. The Rail Accident Investigation Board dealt with 10 such serious dispatch incidents in the last 5 years, of which 8 were on trains where there was no onboard guard monitoring the dispatch, and the bulk were at unstaffed stations, with no platform staff either.
There are two court cases which have put the frighteners up all rail staff. Firstly the Liverpool James Street incident, where a young woman fell under a train at a platform and was killed. The guard involved got 5 years for manslaughter. Similarly there is another case going through the courts, again where a passenger fell under the train, whilst attempting to board as the doors were closing. The guard involved did not move the train, but instead followed all procedures to the letter, and was commended by his employers. However the CPS sought to charge him under a law from 1861, and the case is ongoing.
It is not surprising from these rulings, than drivers in ASLEF do not wish to take on the added responsibility of dispatching trains from platforms (particularly as now trains are much longer, stations and platforms much busier, and sentencing much higher than in the old days of British Rail when the original driver only schemes came in). Additionally on many DOO trains, platform staff are still responsible for the dispatch on busy stations, but the push is also to get rid of them, thus making the driver solely responsible for everything.
CCTV in the cab cannot provide the same view and field of vision that a guard stood at an appropriate position on the platform can provide. Equally if a driver is worried about drunks / late runners on a platform, he is not concentrating on the track ahead, which can and has led to signals being passed at red off platforms, and also puts track workers and users of station crossing at risk. The driver has no communication with passengers on the platform without leaving the cab, shutting the desk down and walking back to deal with them. However this presents a severe distraction risk, - not to mention a massive delay and there have been many cases where driver have got into alterations with drunks and then had a safety incident as their mind has not been on driving, and instead wound up abusive behaviour. A guard meanwhile can remain at the safest position on the train when dispatching to observe platform behaviour, rather than hoping that drunks move away when they return to the cab.
It seems to me that for these problems to be resolved the government need to stop their ideological war on railway staff and to stop blaming them for the mistakes that happen when they are put into rat traps such as the above situations. Removing the franchise from Southern won't necessarily change much, despite the incompetency of managers, since the Department for Transport want to push the de-staffing of railways across the board, and it is likely most of the same managers will just be shifted to any new franchise.
When Gatwick Express went DOO, the actual train dispatch was controlled by platform staff, not drivers, and the guards were redeployed as customer hosts / ticket examiners. They were soon dispensed with, as were the catering staff, and the move now is for the driver to dispatch longer trains with more doors, without station dispatch staff. Southern have said that their preferred method of dispatch is via CCTV - not platform staff, and that there will not be a guaranteed on board service host on trains. Looking at what happened with Gatwick Express, it is no surprise that the staff are extremely worried about their future - as are drivers for taking liability for what happens on platforms.
DOO will not improve anything for passengers, never will never has done. There will be no fare decreases, customer service staff onboard have been whittled down to zero on many operators that have gone DOO, and drivers are not in a position to deal with passengers effectively."
"Part of the problem is that the government has an ideological move to get rid of guards on trains (and also remove platform dispatch staff and close ticket offices at the same time), in order to crush the RMT union - and also to push all liability (and prosecutions) for passenger accidents on the platform onto drivers (the one grade they can't get yet get rid of), in an attempt to weaken ASLEF morale, and also deflect any blame from managers . It appears to me that Southern management (as idiotic and useless as they are) are just doing the bidding of the Tories, and being used as a convenient scapegoat.
The guards' dispute is much much more complicated than is made out in the media, where it is described as "who presses a door close button". In reality the main issue is "who is liable for train dispatch from platforms" - which is a safety critical activity, which if not done properly, can lead to injury and death - and significant jail terms for rail staff, let alone dismissal and loss of pension. The Rail Accident Investigation Board dealt with 10 such serious dispatch incidents in the last 5 years, of which 8 were on trains where there was no onboard guard monitoring the dispatch, and the bulk were at unstaffed stations, with no platform staff either.
There are two court cases which have put the frighteners up all rail staff. Firstly the Liverpool James Street incident, where a young woman fell under a train at a platform and was killed. The guard involved got 5 years for manslaughter. Similarly there is another case going through the courts, again where a passenger fell under the train, whilst attempting to board as the doors were closing. The guard involved did not move the train, but instead followed all procedures to the letter, and was commended by his employers. However the CPS sought to charge him under a law from 1861, and the case is ongoing.
It is not surprising from these rulings, than drivers in ASLEF do not wish to take on the added responsibility of dispatching trains from platforms (particularly as now trains are much longer, stations and platforms much busier, and sentencing much higher than in the old days of British Rail when the original driver only schemes came in). Additionally on many DOO trains, platform staff are still responsible for the dispatch on busy stations, but the push is also to get rid of them, thus making the driver solely responsible for everything.
CCTV in the cab cannot provide the same view and field of vision that a guard stood at an appropriate position on the platform can provide. Equally if a driver is worried about drunks / late runners on a platform, he is not concentrating on the track ahead, which can and has led to signals being passed at red off platforms, and also puts track workers and users of station crossing at risk. The driver has no communication with passengers on the platform without leaving the cab, shutting the desk down and walking back to deal with them. However this presents a severe distraction risk, - not to mention a massive delay and there have been many cases where driver have got into alterations with drunks and then had a safety incident as their mind has not been on driving, and instead wound up abusive behaviour. A guard meanwhile can remain at the safest position on the train when dispatching to observe platform behaviour, rather than hoping that drunks move away when they return to the cab.
It seems to me that for these problems to be resolved the government need to stop their ideological war on railway staff and to stop blaming them for the mistakes that happen when they are put into rat traps such as the above situations. Removing the franchise from Southern won't necessarily change much, despite the incompetency of managers, since the Department for Transport want to push the de-staffing of railways across the board, and it is likely most of the same managers will just be shifted to any new franchise.
When Gatwick Express went DOO, the actual train dispatch was controlled by platform staff, not drivers, and the guards were redeployed as customer hosts / ticket examiners. They were soon dispensed with, as were the catering staff, and the move now is for the driver to dispatch longer trains with more doors, without station dispatch staff. Southern have said that their preferred method of dispatch is via CCTV - not platform staff, and that there will not be a guaranteed on board service host on trains. Looking at what happened with Gatwick Express, it is no surprise that the staff are extremely worried about their future - as are drivers for taking liability for what happens on platforms.
DOO will not improve anything for passengers, never will never has done. There will be no fare decreases, customer service staff onboard have been whittled down to zero on many operators that have gone DOO, and drivers are not in a position to deal with passengers effectively."
Deadly Danson
Well-known member
An excellent article. Thanks for sharing. And one that explains clearly the many reasons why it IS safety issue and why GTR are not to be believed.
pearl
Well-known member
excellent article - thank you!
Joe Gatting's Dad
New member
I think you will find Falmer has been closed by the Transport Police. If you think about the chaos that will result by only half the usually poor midweek service operating, they may well have a point.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,312
its not "from the Guardian " but from the Guardian comments on a story isnt it? as much as it may be good comment, why misrepresent its source? seems to me there is reguritated story around what is the intent of government but the implementation falls short of those claims - no guard jobs lost, no station office staff lost. the offer on the table doesnt match a policy of trying to break the union, seeing as they have won for all intents and purposes if they agree to proposed retention of safety trained staff on all services, except under circumstances agreed with the union.
and some keep making a claim about platform dispatch staff being reduced or removed, but dont see any actual evidence of this - anyone have a real link to this proposal or is it just rumour?
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I was waiting for you to come along and rubbish it.
So desperate to prove daft are doing the right thing and the unions are being difficult. What your angle?
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,312
my angle is im a commuter that having to deal with poor service from Southern now has to put up with even worse service due to union actions.
several pages back i was told my opinion was rubbish by you and others when i was relaying information from the RMT, seems if its presented slightly differently its not acceptable. i wanted to hightlight this wasnt a Guardian article.
whats your angle that you feel the need to misrepresent the comment? see how its reponded to "excellent article" when it may as well been a quote from another forum or from yourself or anyone else supporting the industrial action. i didnt rubbish it, i question it, it makes claims that while appear possible do not stand up with other information. why do you not like it being challenged? where is the evidence there are plans for platform staf removal?
Spiros
Well-known member
Maybe because RMT only seem to want to argue the toss about DOO safety with Southern? Where were they when Thameslink and Gatwick Express introduced it? I don't recall strike action for that (though I may have missed it)
Perhaps they learnt a lesson with Thameslink and Gatwick Express?
Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 70,204
Not good advice. Local news live report from the Amex about half six on the evening of the Colchester game had the reporter in the foreground and a train in the background roaring through Falmer station at some considerable speed. Pulling the communication cord would have to be precision timed else the train would either stop short of the station or overshoot the station before stopping. Then you'd have people jumping down onto the track. And then it would get seriously dangerous.
Spiros
Well-known member
Maybe they did but they've been a bit coy about providing any proper evidence from it. I've dipped in and out of this thread so maybe there's been a comment that I've missed but I'm sure that RMT would be dragging up real cases where lack of a guard was a problem but I haven't seen anything.
pasty
A different kind of pasty
Are you Mick Cash?
BensGrandad
New member
Too difficult to traipse through this entire thread so can I ask what is the actual outcome as regards trains for getting home from Friday and Tuesdays games. I can get to both very easy it is the getting home that may present a problem especially Tuesday getting back to Goring.
Pevenseagull
Anti-greed coalition
- Jul 20, 2003
- 19,636
It's worthy of Kafka.