What Muslims believe CH4 last night

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
That would certainly help although I'm still not sure how many people are likely to tell a stranger even if anonymously they support Islamic terrorism.

Obviously, but that wasn't a question. The question was something like 'are you sympathetic to the use of violence or suicide bombing' - you can't go to jail for being sympathetic to the cause of people from another country.

Wasn't there a question where two thirds said they wouldn't inform the authorities if they suspected a fellow muslim was involved in extremism/terrorism

Yes, but it's all in the wording. You couldn't get in trouble for not inform the police that you think someone is a bit extreme (which is a very subjective term), whereas you could for not reporting an actual terrorist.

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2016

KZNSeagull said:
It is bad, so we have to help the 77% to educate the 23%.

I think that could be too difficult. The extreme views are reinforced from their home countries (where their views are the norm) where they have relatives etc, and I imagine also from Imams here, who might not be the most liberal of Muslims.

Particularly the women. Women hold the key to solving this problem, I reckon.

But the women are too downtrodden to stand up. I think the key is with schools and children. We have the power to make children mix at a young age and that's already been proven to work. Over a couple of decades it would just become normal to mix with people of other faiths (as it is in the schools most of us have been to), and parents will end up mixing too, as their kids go to parties together etc. I believe the children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way.

Goldstone1976 · Apr 14, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
Wasn't there a question where two thirds said they wouldn't inform the authorities if they suspected a fellow muslim was involved in extremism/terrorism

The key word in that question is "suspected".

Would you report a fellow man to the authorities if you suspected he was involved in domestic abuse of his wife? If not, why not?

"suspect" is defined as (in the first definition provided by Google) "have an idea or impression of the existence, presence, or truth of (something) without certain proof."

KZNSeagull · Apr 14, 2016

Triggaaar said:
I think that could be too difficult. The extreme views are reinforced from their home countries (where their views are the norm) where they have relatives etc, and I imagine also from Imams here, who might not be the most liberal of Muslims.

But the women are too downtrodden to stand up. I think the key is with schools and children. We have the power to make children mix at a young age and that's already been proven to work. Over a couple of decades it would just become normal to mix with people of other faiths (as it is in the schools most of us have been to), and parents will end up mixing too, as their kids go to parties together etc. I believe the children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way.

The women are downtrodden, but not all of them. Western women were downtrodden for centuries, but now aren't. In fact most people are outraged when they are. It would need a few like-minded, strong, extremely brave Muslim women to get together and say "hey, this is wrong and this is what should be done about it", with help from the state and society, then eventually things could change.

The schools idea is worth a try but at the end of the day, Muslims have to find a solution to this themselves. A solution imposed upon them is not going to work. Educating the children is definitely the way to go, but empowering and educating women will help too.

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2016

KZNSeagull said:
The schools idea is worth a try but at the end of the day, Muslims have to find a solution to this themselves.

Why do they? I'm not sure many of them see it as as much of a problem as many non Muslims do. It's Britain that suffers if a solution isn't found, so why leave it to a minority to find a solution.

GT49er · Apr 14, 2016

Triggaaar said:
The best bit of the program was the end. The idea that schools limit the amount of ethnic minorities in their intake, in order to make sure different cultures mix with each other, looks like a really good one.

That is a good idea, but it would give those who like to yell 'racism' at every opportunity a veritable field day. No government would do it for fear of being branded racist.

marshy68 · Apr 14, 2016

hampshirebrightonboy said:
There's nothing divisive about Catholic schools

Catholics and Protestants have been butchering each other for almost as long as Christians and Muslims.....

KZNSeagull · Apr 14, 2016

Triggaaar said:
Why do they? I'm not sure many of them see it as as much of a problem as many non Muslims do. It's Britain that suffers if a solution isn't found, so why leave it to a minority to find a solution.

Because I suspect that the majority do not know how the problem or perceived problem came about in the first place. Imposing ill thought out solutions on a potentially unwilling minority is not going to solve anything and will only lead to more resentment (the French wanting to ban head-scarves for example). Any solution will have to have input from all sides, but the minority has to be listened to and a happy medium found, obviously within the laws of the land.

They are also British and many of them will also suffer if a solution isn't found and if many do not see that there is a problem, as you suggest, then there is another problem that needs resolving as well.

Gilliver's Travels · Apr 14, 2016

goldstone said:
You're living in Britain. You agree to abide by our laws, accept our customs, speak our language and do your best to integrate. Otherwise you can go right back to where you came from. No ifs, no buts.

I lived in Greece for three years. I met many expat Brits who just lived in their British enclaves, uninterested in mixing with the locals and knowing nothing of their language - even after ten years abroad.

I suspect this was a basic human instinct at work, with those expat Brits' cash boost to the local economy being their only redeeming feature. But at least there was no religion-driven motivation for this separation.

If we want a harmonious society in Britain, it is imperative that we abolish all of these divisive faith schools, and let pupils of all backgrounds learn together the principles of rationality and critical thought. Only then will the true nature of those absurd, competing desert religions be seen in their proper context.

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2016

GT49er said:
That is a good idea, but it would give those who like to yell 'racism' at every opportunity a veritable field day. No government would do it for fear of being branded racist.

It's already happened in Oldham. It's not picking on minorities, it's helping them to integrate. Mistakes clearly happen because of fear of being labelled a racist, like in Rotherham, extremists are causing enough problems that this mentality will change. I think it's already started to change.

KZNSeagull said:
Because I suspect that the majority do not know how the problem or perceived problem came about in the first place. Imposing ill thought out solutions on a potentially unwilling minority is not going to solve anything and will only lead to more resentment

But I didn't say that was the solution. Creating a situation where children integrate is not ill thought out, and it doesn't do anything to the minority that it doesn't also do to the majority.

They are also British and many of them will also suffer if a solution isn't found

Yes, but we shouldn't just leave it to them to sort out. It just wouldn't get fixed.

KZNSeagull · Apr 14, 2016

Triggaaar said:
But I didn't say that was the solution. Creating a situation where children integrate is not ill thought out, and it doesn't do anything to the minority that it doesn't also do to the majority.

Yes, but we shouldn't just leave it to them to sort out. It just wouldn't get fixed.

No, I agree that the schools solution one is worth a try and could be a good long-term solution, but it will not help in the short term.

I didn't say that they should be left to sort it out themselves. I said that they should have the problem pointed out to them, if they do not believe that there is one, and then involved in the solution.

Brightonfan1983 · Apr 14, 2016

Berty23 said:
Re the first paragraph. Representativeness is key and not sample size. There was a famous example of a massive sample in the 1936 us election where the survey showed that republican Landon would win comfortably. A far smaller survey which used a representative sample (I believe it was the launch of Gallup) shows democrat Roosevelt winning. The republicans laughed the small sample out of town.

What happened? One of the biggest landslides ever for Roosevelt. So what went wrong? The republicans used telephone directories from private member clubs and such like and phoned people to gather their views. This was 1936 so not everyone had a phone and obviously certain people join these clubs. The results were heavily skewed to republican voters.

So the point re only sampling in areas with 20% plus is important. This is NOT representative of the overall population. I would imagine that those who are in white dominated areas will have very different views. This links to much of the contact theory work that is being led by miles hewstone at Oxford uni.

I came across this article which, being American, has no personal axe to grind and is equanimous with the facts - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...h-muslims-really-think-critics-say-it-failed/

As for Prof. Hewstone, anyone who can raise the bile-flecked hackles of The DM's readership by suggesting Oxbridge universities pick their new students at random, has my vote.

Two Professors · Apr 14, 2016

I think the survey was over-simplistic.There are many different branches of Islam,most of them represented in Birmingham,ranging from the peace-loving Ahmadi,to the loony toons Salafist,Wahaabi,and Deobandi persuasions.Some of them hate each other even more than they hate us,witness the recent murder in Scotland of an Ahmadi newsagent by an extremist Sunni.Very few of them will ever integrate,as long as Saudi extremists fund imams that teach women are subservient,non-muslims are cattle that can be slaughtered with the blessing of God,and jihad is a duty.Many muslim brides imported from the East never learn English,so how can they be empowered?

Pretty pink fairy · Apr 14, 2016

Two Professors said:
I think the survey was over-simplistic.There are many different branches of Islam,most of them represented in Birmingham,ranging from the peace-loving Ahmadi,to the loony toons Salafist,Wahaabi,and Deobandi persuasions.Some of them hate each other even more than they hate us,witness the recent murder in Scotland of an Ahmadi newsagent by an extremist Sunni.Very few of them will ever integrate,as long as Saudi extremists fund imams that teach women are subservient,non-muslims are cattle that can be slaughtered with the blessing of God,and jihad is a duty.Many muslim brides imported from the East never learn English,so how can they be empowered?

JUST TAKING THE PISS LIVING IN THE UK , apart from sending them back to a country that sympathy's with those beliefs WHATS NO TO LIKE :nono:

Deleted member 22389 · Apr 14, 2016

Two Professors said:
I think the survey was over-simplistic.There are many different branches of Islam,most of them represented in Birmingham,ranging from the peace-loving Ahmadi,to the loony toons Salafist,Wahaabi,and Deobandi persuasions.Some of them hate each other even more than they hate us,witness the recent murder in Scotland of an Ahmadi newsagent by an extremist Sunni.Very few of them will ever integrate,as long as Saudi extremists fund imams that teach women are subservient,non-muslims are cattle that can be slaughtered with the blessing of God,and jihad is a duty.Many muslim brides imported from the East never learn English,so how can they be empowered?

You should educate the government on these matters, because to them your either a moderate or extremist, they are not looking in the middle which I'm afraid hides behind political correctness.

symyjym · Apr 14, 2016

If anyone has been watching Bear Grylls The Island, the Muslim chap had to leave because the females were showing too much flesh. Everytime he looked or glanced at them he would have lost heaven points or sawab's. Muslims carry with them two angels, one sits on the right shoulder and records all good deeds, while another sits on the left shoulder and records all bad deeds.

With their belief system they are chained to it because they are judged every second of the day. When they are sleeping Allah takes their conscience away, and then gives it back to wake them up.

I don't understand how anyone would follow a religion supposedly "revealed" by a man who is guilty of rape, torture, mass beheadings, enslavement of women and children, etc. Muhammad also made a phony "revelation" in the Quran where he has "Allah" say that Muhammad is the best moral example to follow. Islam is troubled and problematic on may levels..

Perfidious Albion · Apr 14, 2016

Why not ask Beram Kayal what Muslims believe.... Would you "send him back " too?

From The Guardian Nov 21 2015
"Kayal is an Israeli Arab who reads the same passage from the Qur’an before matches,"

Triggaaar · Apr 14, 2016

KZNSeagull said:
I didn't say that they should be left to sort it out themselves. I said that they should have the problem pointed out to them, if they do not believe that there is one, and then involved in the solution.

I'm not wanting to pick a fight, but that's how I read it:

KZNSeagull said:
The schools idea is worth a try but at the end of the day, Muslims have to find a solution to this themselves.

I agree that we should also do our best to involve Muslim communities in fixing the problem, particularly the Imams. Sharia Law won't ever happen here, and they won't covert the UK to Islam, they need to get their heads round that.

Buzzer · Apr 14, 2016

marshy68 said:
Catholics and Protestants have been butchering each other for almost as long as Christians and Muslims.....

Not quite. Muslims have fought against Christians for over 1400 years. Martin Luther nailed his letter to a church door 500 years ago.

An interesting sidepoint is that Luther kicked off a Reformation that has led to a liberal, tolerant West and most serious observers acknowledge that Islam is in desperate need of a similar Reformation so they can move away from their medieval views on women, homosexuals, atheists, apostates and justice.

KZNSeagull · Apr 14, 2016

Triggaaar said:
I'm not wanting to pick a fight, but that's how I read it:

I agree that we should also do our best to involve Muslim communities in fixing the problem, particularly the Imams. Sharia Law won't ever happen here, and they won't covert the UK to Islam, they need to get their heads round that.

I clarified what I said in that post, in post #68, so there is no fight to pick. Mr pedant.

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