[Politics] Brexit

Hampster Gull said:

If true then you will walk the vote. But you know you,wont because the majority have a different view. Sunny Uplands is not achieved by exit

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The vote is slighty in Remains favour, but if a lot of these people stopped listening to the scaremongering and actually looked at how the EU operates, looked at migration and all the other issues people would change their minds.

Herr Tubthumper said:

So why do they not talk "scaremongering bullshit" then?

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Why don't you watch Kate Hoey below and then give me your thoughts afterwards.

bashlsdir said:

The vote is slighty in Remains favour, but if a lot of these people stopped listening to the scaremongering and actually looked at how the EU operates, looked at migration and all the other issues people would change their minds.

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Ah, i get it now. If everyone just stopped listening to the diversity of views and weighing up the arguments then they would all vote like you. Got you

bashlsdir said:

Why don't you watch Kate Hoey below and then give me your thoughts afterwards.

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I only listened to the first 4 minutes. nothing that I haven't heard before so can't be bothered with the rest.

Hampster Gull said:

Ah, i get it now. If everyone just stopped listening to the diversity of views and weighing up the arguments then they would all vote like you. Got you

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Quite

Herr Tubthumper said:

Yesterday it was arts and culture, today supermarkets.

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This is the supermarkets who rely on the government and tax credits to top up the appalling wages they pay. Cheap labour is all they are interested in. They should be concentrating on paying decent wages, rather than their profits, shareholders and dividends.

Really can't believe you are defending these greedy Capitalist companies.

Hampster Gull said:

If true then you will walk the vote. But you know you,wont because the majority have a different view. Sunny Uplands is not achieved by exit

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That's not what I said...

I said the only people that want to leave are people in the UK.

JC Footy Genius said:

No one has claimed we are in the Schengen zone. Yes as I said previously we can check passports of EU nationals then we have to wave the vast majority of them through. You are completely wrong we cannot deny an EU citizen entry just because they have a criminal record.

Measures taken on grounds of public policy or public security shall comply with the principle of proportionality and shall be based exclusively on the personal conduct of the individual concerned. Previous criminal convictions shall not in themselves constitute grounds for taking such measures.
The personal conduct of the individual concerned must represent a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society. Justifications that are isolated from the particulars of the case or that rely on considerations of general prevention shall not be accepted.

See the figures on how many EU citizens are denied entry compared to non EU citizens relative to the number allowed in. In addition some EU countries do not have or share the relevant data. Yet another example of the EU only being as strong as the weakest link. See numerous cases of EU citizens entering the UK with serious criminal convictions and committing further crimes.

Studies have not shown time and time again that mass immigration to this country produces a net benefit there are a mix of studies showing varying projections some showing a large net cost to the UK. Once again no one is saying immigration is a bad thing but they are saying mass immigration causes numerous problems and that it is dangerous and unsustainable. Controlled immigration would still give us the freedom to hire nurses or other types of skilled workers if needed but would restrict the mass free for all we have now.

The argument only goes 'we should stop immigration' in your head. The list of straw man deliberate misinterpretations continues! It is not in the best interests of the UK to flood our Labour market with foreign workers while having 1.6 million of our fellow citizens unemployed. It is not in our interests for this influx to displace/undercut UK workers driving down some of their wages. It is also not good for accessing local services, schools, housing and the NHS in many areas. It is also not good for social cohesion in some places. It is also not good as it is impossible to plan for future needs re population size in the short and long term. It is also a disincentive for our government to adequately fund skills programs to address shortfalls as jobs are filled by foreign workers. It is also not good for anyone who becomes a victim of crime because an EU citizen with a history of criminality cannot be automatically denied entry to this country. Yes we want something we haven't got now .. controlled EU immigration for all of the above reasons and some that you mention.

Next time just post a link to 'how the EU works' it will save you some unnecessary typing. At least we agree about something we cannot reform the EU to our liking. We are a 2nd tier member up against an inbuilt ever closer union 1st tier Eurozone majority. An ongoing failing rearguard action comprising of opt outs and rebates will not change the EU's direction of travel it never has and never will.

Not a Polar debate yet you often dress it up as a black and white issue using numerous straw man arguments. Speaking of all good/bad, of course the UK can prosper outside the EU just like the vast majority of countries around the world do. Even the Chancellors-treasury mickey mouse forecast said we would. You should have a bit more faith in your country and of course we will continue to work with our European partners but we will regain self governance and controls in numerous areas.

The very things you correctly identify as admirable traits of this country are threatened by continued EU membership. Do you really think the public's major concerns on immigration will dissipate as mass immigration continues at unprecedented rates. As we look across Europe with the rise of extremist parties and numerous ongoing crisis, tolerance and fairness aren't two words that readily spring to mind. Time to leave.

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OK, so some debate here. The use of the word mass immigration is highly subjective. There has been no policy of mass immigration. Instead, we are part of a Union that allows for the free movement of nationals with the freedom to work and trade. This works both ways. Just as EU nationals are free to come to the UK, so native residents of the UK are free to move throughout the EU. This presents huge advantages to us and allows our young people to work and explore other countries and gives our entrepreneurs access to a wide.

In fact, the business benefits of remaining are huge; full access to the single market of 500m people means British businesses can sell to more people with the same rules as we have here, and they can grow more quickly. I say ‘full access’ because the ‘full’ bit is particularly important. Lots of countries have ‘access’ to trade with the single market, but they have to pay import tariffs and they face regulatory barriers when they do; we don’t have those, and that means that British companies can trade with companies and consumers in Berlin or Brussels in exactly the same way as if they were in Birmingham or Bristol.

Back to immigration. We seemed to be obsessed that it is a one way ticket. It's not. And even when we do look at EU Nationals entering the UK, the evidence shows that they pay their way and are filling vital roles. We do have a surplus of jobs - unbelievably so - and as I have pointed out, these jobs aren't to everyone's liking which is why they remain unfilled. And studies - many studies both independent and issued by government - do show that immigrants are making a net contribution. You might not feel it's net value, for whatever reason - political, social, cultural - but they do make a net contribution.

The argument also goes that we are full up. That we can't house and educate people. Yes, we do have a chronic housing shortage and yes we do need more schools and hospitals. So let's build them. I'd suggest the creation of more schools and investment in teaching would be far more beneficial to the long-term success of the UK than say the construction of HS2.

I'm delighted that you feel this is not a pole debate as well. It means that you see the merits of the EU as well as the shortcomings. The EU is wasteful - the whole Strasbourg issue is a total waste of £100million Euros of taxpayer cash. Reform is needed and members can force that reform if the collective will is there. And the collective will is going to be there. The fact that this vote is happening will have sent a warning out to the EU.

If we leave then we'll have to work with EU countries on the outside rather than the inside. That is not a good prospect. Immigration won't change - we'll still need some immigration to fill a shortfall of skills (nursing is one example I have used before). We may need less immigration due to our GDP falling. A weaker economy will produce less jobs, and it will also have an impact on wages. This isn't scaremongering. As you know, it's just what happens.

We'll also need to redirect funds to certain areas. Yes we'll save our £23million a day net contribution to the EU, but a lot of that will be swallowed up immediately. The NFU has come out on the side of the EU because UK farmers are waking up to the fact that they will lose the £8million a day that they receive from the EU through the common agricultural policy. If we are going to keep providing farmers with that subsidy, then we'll need to find what ever 365 x £8million is (a lot of cash) otherwise we'll see them go bust. As they are being squeezed for prices by our lovely supermarkets, they'll have to go bust or supermarkets will need to a) raise prices at the checkouts or b) import from the EU. Even if they do import from the EU, the government will probably need to impose tariffs which will increase the price of imports. Either way, it's all unnecessary expense.

I love this country. I have every faith in my country. I want my country to make the right decision. For me - even taking into account the things that are wrong with the EU - that future needs to be inside an EU, working together to solve common problems, create parity, trade as part of one strong bloc, whilst still retaining our rich heritage and cultural history.

I'll end on the Claude Junckers threat. First, it's a very foolish thing to say and doesn't help. However, I'm not surprised. The UK is threatening to leave the EU and compete with the EU. In competition you are trying to do better than the other side. I read his comments and imagined us saying the same thing to Scotland when they had their referendum. Were we saying the same things? Probably.

Hampster Gull said:

Sterling drops, prices for imports go up, asset values drop, less inward investment, less jobs, less global influence, families £4300 worse off. Not a great story for the quitters

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on the other hand, Sterling drops and asset values drop so inward investment increases, more jobs. also no or lower tariffs on all products outside the EU, which is far greater, means lower prices even after Sterling drop. global influence is largly based on military and soft power, neither of which are impacted by leaving EU. so its really not a simple as you think.

and you never answered, when do we get our £4300 for staying in?

Maldini said:

Scary words for the Remain camp perhaps - House Crash,Economic Ruin,World War 3,Pound Collapse.

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Yes I suppose so

Of course Remain would be able to add a link for evidence and description below the video

Herr Tubthumper said:

Good point, do you want to see Inigo and his family deported? No. For Inigo vote Remain!

(PS for the benefit of the humorless Little Englanders this is tongue in cheek)

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Would Calderon have been admitted to the UK when he first arrived under a tiered system? If I recall when he came to the UK he had no club, so would have had no-one to sponsor his visa.

I've been looking up some trade figures.
In 2015 tthe UK imported 89 billion pounds worth more than it exported to the Eurozone. It would seem that the EU needs us far more than we need them yet we are paying vast sums to them for this '.privilage'
Since 1999 the gap between what we have traded outside of the Eu and what we have traded with them has grown year on year. It was virtually fifty fifty back then but we now trade more across the world than what we do with the EU members and with a stagnating economy in the EU this gap will continue to grow This has probably been mentioned before but i'm not trawling back through the entire thread.

I'm astounded that so many still want to stay in this Un Democratic, beaurocratic money pit whose leaders are answerable to no one.
What originally started as a trading agreement has grown in to a political dictatorship that can inflict laws and regulations at will .and we are powerless to stop them. Has society been so dumbed down over the last 30 years that many blindly believe what they are told by a prejudiced press and media. ?

Weatherman said:

I've been looking up some trade figures.
In 2015 tthe UK imported 89 billion pounds worth more than it exported to the Eurozone. It would seem that the EU needs us far more than we need them yet we are paying vast sums to them for this '.privilage'
Since 1999 the gap between what we have traded outside of the Eu and what we have traded with them has grown year on year. It was virtually fifty fifty back then but we now trade more across the world than what we do with the EU members and with a stagnating economy in the EU this gap will continue to grow This has probably been mentioned before but i'm not trawling back through the entire thread.

I'm astounded that so many still want to stay in this Un Democratic, beaurocratic money pit whose leaders are answerable to no one.
What originally started as a trading agreement has grown in to a political dictatorship that can inflict laws and regulations at will .and we are powerless to stop them. Has society been so dumbed down over the last 30 years that many blindly believe what they are told by a prejudiced press and media. ?

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Exactly, Your opening paragraph was mentioned months back on a different thread, mainly ignored and since then the scaremongering has been full on.
Even our own Calde has been thrown in to the mix.
Great post by the way.

Weatherman said:

I've been looking up some trade figures.
In 2015 tthe UK imported 89 billion pounds worth more than it exported to the Eurozone. It would seem that the EU needs us far more than we need them yet we are paying vast sums to them for this '.privilage'
Since 1999 the gap between what we have traded outside of the Eu and what we have traded with them has grown year on year. It was virtually fifty fifty back then but we now trade more across the world than what we do with the EU members and with a stagnating economy in the EU this gap will continue to grow This has probably been mentioned before but i'm not trawling back through the entire thread.

I'm astounded that so many still want to stay in this Un Democratic, beaurocratic money pit whose leaders are answerable to no one.
What originally started as a trading agreement has grown in to a political dictatorship that can inflict laws and regulations at will .and we are powerless to stop them. Has society been so dumbed down over the last 30 years that many blindly believe what they are told by a prejudiced press and media. ?

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We do trade with the rest of the world. It would be great to carry on doing that and have the negotiating power of a bloc like the EU on our side rather than outside it. Trade with places like India, China and Brazil will be essential. Those countries will be looking to put in place trade agreements with powerful blocs. As one union we will carry much more power. We are the 5th largest economy in the world, but remember, that is in no small part down to our relationship with the EU and the access that affords us to the markets of Germany, France etc.

Trade has changed over the past 30 years, and so the EU's role in securing agreements not just between its own member states, but with other countries, will become essential.

Hampster Gull said:

Sterling drops, prices for imports go up, asset values drop, less inward investment, less jobs, less global influence, families £4300 worse off. Not a great story for the quitters

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Oh for heavens sake - this figure has been proven to be complete bollocks ages ago. Even if we believe the figure it based on the average household income being £78k - a figure many households don't even get close to. It was also based on what GDP might be in 2030 yet calculated using the number of households NOW. Ask yourself why they didn't use the predicted number of households in 2030 ? Ah, yes, because it the number wouldn't look nearly as scary. Finally, you can't miss what you've never had - it's not that money is going to be taken from peoples incomes directly - it's like you have received slightly smaller pay rises each year.

Soulman said:

Exactly, Your opening paragraph was mentioned months back on a different thread, mainly ignored and since then the scaremongering has been full on.
Even our own Calde has been thrown in to the mix.
Great post by the way.

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Scaremongering is a word the leave camp used. Presenting data and analysis is not scaremongering, it's just what is being discovered. Leave the EU and these are the consequences of that decision. That's all.

Hampster Gull said:

families £4300 worse off. Not a great story for the quitters

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Crikey are you still trying to peddle that myth, i thought that scare/"fact" was shown up for what it was weeks ago.

Hampster Gull said:

Ah, i get it now. If everyone just stopped listening to the diversity of views and weighing up the arguments then they would all vote like you. Got you

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Herr Tubthumper said:

I only listened to the first 4 minutes. nothing that I haven't heard before so can't be bothered with the rest.

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Herr Tubthumper said:

Quite

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*** cough ***

Westdene Seagull said:

*** cough ***

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What is Kate Hoey going to tell me in that clip which I hang heard her say before? I'm fully aware of her opinion on this referendum.

Hamilton said:

We do trade with the rest of the world. It would be great to carry on doing that and have the negotiating power of a bloc like the EU on our side rather than outside it. Trade with places like India, China and Brazil will be essential. Those countries will be looking to put in place trade agreements with powerful blocs.

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this is a myth created in the last couple of weeks by the remain camp. in reality being out of EU means we can unilaterally cut tariffs. i cant understand how EU remainers can say with a straight face that EU will improve our trade with other nations when the entire purpose of the EU and its forebears is to create a protectist bloc and restrict trade from the rest of the world. example, the Raspberry Pi was originally intended to be manufactured wholly in the UK, unfortunatly the import tariffs on some components made that uneconomical, it was cheaper to have the boards made abroad before importing (on a lower tariff) for final assembly. this is to protect old barely economically functional component manufactuers in the EU, who can no longer produce components to the specification or quality required. the EU will not negotiate meaningful trade deals across the world, its not in its interest to do so.