Jeremy Hunt-v-Junior Doctors.

JC Footy Genius · Feb 12, 2016

bashlsdir said:
I'm all for a bit of Private funding because something has to change. Don't know why Private is such a dirty word. Would rather pay a bit more knowing our NHS is looked after, people get paid properly, there are enough staff and nobody is left waiting.

If it's good enough for the Germans and the French then I can't see why we cannot create a system including some of the best aspects of these and other examples while retaining the many good parts of the NHS. The ideologically driven public = good, private = bad argument is as flawed as the opposite position. We will need the best of both systems to make 21st century healthcare affordable.

trueblue · Feb 12, 2016

bashlsdir said:
Don't know why Private is such a dirty word.

I can't possibly imagine. Private companies have such an exemplary record for staying fair in their pricing as they get more powerful, ensuring they prioritise the needs of their customers (or patients in this case) rather than just cutting corners to maximise profits, happily paying all the taxes they owe for the benefit of society as a whole and generally being accountable and responsible for their actions. It really is a mystery.

heathgate · Feb 12, 2016

bashlsdir said:
I'm all for a bit of Private funding because something has to change. Don't know why Private is such a dirty word. Would rather pay a bit more knowing our NHS is looked after, people get paid properly, there are enough staff and nobody is left waiting.

Its genetically ingrained in the political left to reject privatisation of any sort, at anytime, for any purpose,.... and its simply because of the links with Thatcher,.... its no more complicated than that.

Sussex Nomad · Feb 12, 2016

wellquickwoody said:
13.5% of £45k is over six grand. If I send you my account details perhaps you wouldn't mind setting up a direct debit to me seeing as how you wouldn't miss that piffling amount?

ALL junior doctors are on 45k?

Tom Hark Preston Park · Feb 12, 2016

heathgate said:
Its genetically ingrained in the political left to reject privatisation of any sort, at anytime, for any purpose,.... and its simply because of the links with Thatcher,.... its no more complicated than that.

It's got more to do with an instinctive reaction against the sort of little piggies who always end up with their snouts in the trough, creaming off all the profits with no deeper thought process other than sheer greed... its no more complicated than that.

highflyer · Feb 12, 2016

heathgate said:
Its genetically ingrained in the political left to reject privatisation of any sort, at anytime, for any purpose,.... and its simply because of the links with Thatcher,.... its no more complicated than that.

Bollocks. But of course very much in line with media mythmaking.
As an example, lots of people assume (because they have been told) that Cobyn's energy plan is simply to 'renationalize'
The reality is far more interesting and includes a role for the 'private sector' albeit a very different one and with the state playing a stronger role.

As per this article: http://www.desmog.uk/2015/09/09/fou...n-s-innovative-energy-policy-no-80s-throwback

'It’s no aggressive nationalisation plan. What it is, is a manifesto for a more decentralised and democratically accountable system, inspired more by present-day Germany than 1980s Britain.'

Not saying you have to agree with this, but the reality of the emerging policies on the 'left' are often very different to the spin we get from the right wing media.

Seagull27 · Feb 12, 2016

Privatisation in areas where there is a genuine free market and a drive for companies to compete is fantastic. For example, the food industry. For anyone to suggest that we should nationalise all food shops would be absurd, as the vast majority of people are able to find food at affordable prices, with varying quality depending on how much you want to pay. There's no requirement for the government to take control of this, as prices are driven down by competition and therefore the poorest don't miss out (except the very poorest, but that's a more complex issue).

The problem with privatisation is when a service gets sold to a private company that cannot have direct competition. For example, trains. The government obviously has a desire to sell services to the lowest bidder. Once a company has won that bid, they have no real reason to give the best service possible - they'll employ staff as cheaply as possible to do the minimum job necessary, whilst charging customers the highest amount they can get away with. As long as they don't break the terms of contract, why go any further than they need to?

This is why I believe it would be unwise to privatise sections of the NHS. If it's still a government-run organisation, with sections sold off to contractors, they won't do the best job possible, only the minimum amount required.

As for selling the NHS completely and making healthcare a free market - I guess it depends on what you believe. Personally, I believe that everyone should be able to receive the highest quality of healthcare a country is capable of offering, regardless of personal wealth. Unlike food, clothes and other retail items/services, we don't usually have the luxury of being able to shop around when ill/injured and I take pride in the fact that our country will treat anyone immediately when needed, without needing to see insurance papers first.

Sussex Nomad · Feb 12, 2016

wellquickwoody said:
13.5% of £45k is over six grand. If I send you my account details perhaps you wouldn't mind setting up a direct debit to me seeing as how you wouldn't miss that piffling amount?

After a very quick investigation I came up with this;

The facts on doctors' pay

Basic salary for junior doctors starts at about £23,000 but increases in the second year to about £28,000 (Pay for doctors - NHS Careers). For a doctor in specialist training, the basic salary is between £30,000 and £47,000.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34475955

Seriously selective and simplistic post on your behalf?

Hampster Gull · Feb 12, 2016

Seagull27 said:
And how exactly do you expect this to be workable without any increase in investment?

Loads more money spent on the NHS. Aging population. Bottomless pit. Only so much can be spent

beorhthelm · Feb 12, 2016

trueblue said:
I can't possibly imagine. Private companies have such an exemplary record for staying fair in their pricing as they get more powerful, ensuring they prioritise the needs of their customers (or patients in this case) rather than just cutting corners to maximise profits, happily paying all the taxes they owe for the benefit of society as a whole and generally being accountable and responsible for their actions. It really is a mystery.

yes, the vast majority do. and i presume you've never heard of mutuals and not-for-profit organisations? such as Bupa for example.

drew · Feb 12, 2016

seagullwedgee said:
Everyone is tired at the end of a working week, which for most people is definitely NOT M-F 9-5.

This tiredness angle is really just their spin on "I'm going to lose at least one Saturday in four with my family" because they've been quite clear to say it's not about the money.

Just get on with it. And dont forget that WE* are paying their wages, and enough is enough, just get on with it.

* those who actually pay income tax and VAT.

Have you got any stats to back up your assertion that most people don't worm Mon to Fri?

Indurain's Lungs · Feb 12, 2016

Ok just to clarify -

Junior Doctor covers everything from qualification to Consultant. Up to 15 years for some people including those with a huge amount of experience who are essentially "running" their specialty/group of specialties at evenings/nights/weekends.

Pay runs from £22k to £47k (max) over 11 years.

The additional pay is known as banding. It is not overtime - that is unpaid.

The banding covers the compulsory hours in the rota outside Mon-Fri 7am to 7pm. It is not paid at an hourly rate (which is what is proposed in the new contract). It is paid at either 40% or 50% uplift in basic depending on how much of your work beyond 40 hours a week is "unsocial".

The banding means that many junior doctors work 2 in 3 weekends and, therefore, receive the 50% uplift. Those who work fewer weekends get the 40% uplift. This is inherently unfair as someone working 1 in 10 weekends gets the same as someone working 1 in 4 weekends and 1 in 4 night shifts - reform was needed.

All proposals are "cost neutral" now - no-one is getting a pay rise out of this unless they were already seriously disadvantaged but the current system. The 13.5% basic uplift compensates some of the loss of the 40 or 50% banding.

The new contract would not apply to any doctor more than 5 years out of medical school and others would be pay protected for 3 years - the aim of the new contract is to reduce pay greatly by the end of this parliament whilst buying off the current crop of more experienced senior doctors.

The patients safety concerns have probably been adequately addressed now. The "weekend effect" has been grossly misrepresented by the government but even if it was due to staffing it is NOT junior doctor staffing. Junior doctors are already heavily represented 24/7 - some additional Consultant cover is needed but mostly an expansion in nursing, support staff, imaging, porters, secretaries etc. is needed but most importantly - massively expanded social care which has had budgets slashed by this government.

sussex_guy2k2 · Feb 12, 2016

It's a repeat of the Conservatives' attitude to teachers and their profession. Good intentions regarding improving the relevant sectors, but annoying all of the people they need to implement the changes they're putting in place.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Feb 12, 2016

The junior doctors will win their battle against Hunt, same as any dedicated body of public sector professionals will always win against a politician. The dedicated public sector professional has the skills that are highly sought-after in any civilised country worth the name. Which increasingly doesn't appear to include the UK. At least not under this snide Tory regime that, as always, knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Ernest · Feb 12, 2016

I think it's safe to say that this won't be settled till Hunt has gone and the more toxic he becomes the sooner Cameron will boot him out

heathgate · Feb 12, 2016

Indurain's Lungs said:
Ok just to clarify -

Junior Doctor covers everything from qualification to Consultant. Up to 15 years for some people including those with a huge amount of experience who are essentially "running" their specialty/group of specialties at evenings/nights/weekends.

Pay runs from £22k to £47k (max) over 11 years.

.

Further clarification,... entry level junior doctors (f1's).. may earn a basic 22k,.. but in fact the average annual earnings through the various supplements amount to an average of 40k,.. not bad straight out of University is it? Junior doctors in specialist training can earn upwards of 47k... and 69k once qualified.

Yoda · Feb 12, 2016

seagullwedgee said:
Everyone is tired at the end of a working week, which for most people is definitely NOT M-F 9-5.

This tiredness angle is really just their spin on "I'm going to lose at least one Saturday in four with my family" because they've been quite clear to say it's not about the money.

Just get on with it. And dont forget that WE* are paying their wages, and enough is enough, just get on with it.

* those who actually pay income tax and VAT.

So you've not read about the Dr who had ended up working for almost 3 days straight, due to being on call, with so little sleep he ended up talking to a hallucination in the corridor?

Just remember, these "tried" Dr's are in charge of peoples LIVES, not a check out in a supermarket, etc.

Ernest · Feb 12, 2016

Yoda said:
So you've not read about the Dr who had ended up working for almost 3 days straight, due to being on call, with so little sleep he ended up talking to a hallucination in the corridor?

Just remember, these "tried" Dr's are in charge of peoples LIVES, not a check out in a supermarket, etc.

A doctor can't just walk out if it is the end of his shift if there is nobody there to relieve him or he is in the middle of saving someone's life, people forget this

BigGully · Feb 12, 2016

heathgate said:
Further clarification,... entry level junior doctors (f1's).. may earn a basic 22k,.. but in fact the average annual earnings through the various supplements amount to an average of 40k,.. not bad straight out of University is it? Junior doctors in specialist training can earn upwards of 47k... and 69k once qualified.

You know what, I am not sure if thats enough ........

Tom Hark Preston Park · Feb 12, 2016

Ernest said:
A doctor can't just walk out if it is the end of his shift if there is nobody there to relieve him or he is in the middle of saving someone's life, people forget this

Sorry mate, but you're wrong. People DON'T forget this. Only politicians forget this. One junior doctor is worth a hundred Jeremy Hunts. FACT.

Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

Jeremy Hunt-v-Junior Doctors.

Bringer of TRUTH

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Will Post For Cash

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

New member

A. Virgo, Football Genius

Drew

Legend of Garry Nelson

Well-known member

Will Post For Cash

Stupid IDIOT

Well-known member

English & European

Stupid IDIOT

Well-known member

Will Post For Cash

Share this page