Homeless man brought to court after asking for 10p

The Fifth Column · Feb 8, 2016

Brighton Lines said:
No. But we should be a bit more discerning in the application of law. Most people who have asked me for money in Brighton, and that's every day as I work and live in the town centre, are polite with it. If ever I am bothered by it I just remind myself of the accommodating flat I am going back to and tell myself that it's a case of 'there go we...'. Aggressive approaches are not welcome, but I can only think of one in recent months. Many years ago I was assaulted by a homeless person who asked for money. It hasn't changed my view.

I'd argue that the police are being discerning when applying the law since like you I am around the streets of the city centre every day and not all the beggars are being arrested, in fact the vast majority of them are in their favoured spots day in day out for hours on end without so much as a copper even asking them to move along. The fella that was nicked was a persistent beggar and this more than anything would be the reason he was nicked.

Paris · Feb 8, 2016

Where's Father Alan? He'd sort this out

Justice · Feb 9, 2016

8ace said:
Why don't you read the full story on the argus website you

Steady on your being calling someone a next.

Shropshire Seagull · Feb 9, 2016

Once fined and unable to pay would this become a custodial sentence? Ideal for the homeless maybe?

Also, with no fixed abode, presume bail cannot be granted, so remanded in custody? AKA warm bed and half descent food?

Wise may says: "never sue a man of straw".
Don't OB know this?

NooBHA · Feb 9, 2016

studio150 said:
No, the law of the land needs to be upheld or the fabric of society crumbles.

There are many people who are frightened by beggars and cross the road to avoid them, particularly if they are aggressive beggars by which I mean that they are in your face effectively demanding money.

Also you have been selective in posting the story, as in fact the report continues to comment that the Police look to arrest those that are known to have refused assistance that is available, as opposed to those that are seeking help to recover their lives.

I agree it is quite disconcerting for people to deal with beggars; however, I don't imagine it is pleasant to have to do either. I think if you took a poll on here and asked people if they thought that you could be guaranteed £100 a day begging or £100 a day working, I would suspect that most people would actually find it easier within themselves to work for it. And that's not just out of self respect or anything like that. It is just that begging is not something that most people would find themselves capable of being able to do.

The Antikythera Mechanism · Feb 9, 2016

I'd rather they arrest the "chuggers"

Braggfan · Feb 9, 2016

The police get upset when the public are negative towards them, but the sad thing is, for all the good work they do this sort of operation is only ever going to bring negativity upon them.

I help at the Brighton Soup run and in the summer we had an incident where someone with clear mental health issues was being aggressive and abusive to passers-by. A passing police officer did an amazing job of calming the situation down and then resolving it. They have my full respect for that. It wasn’t a nice job to do and they did it excellently, admirably and professionally. But then I’m left agog hearing the stories of people being arrested for begging.

It seems so inconsistent, almost as if the two ends of the spectrum are being dealt with the wrong way round. Apart from being immoral in my opinion, it seems such a waste of time and money to pursue begging in this way, and those resources could surely be better spent elsewhere. In terms of why you want to do this, it comes across as an easy win for the police, who can bump up their arrests stats and tick all the boxes, through from arresting someone, taking them to court, and successfully prosecuting them. It's not a good use of money, it doesn't benefit anyone other than police.

Questions · Feb 9, 2016

Some lovely replies on this thread from good old Brightonians. Always making out the city is special and the people so cool, liberal and laid back. Yes it's truly a city now.

Braggfan · Feb 9, 2016

To put it bluntly, if you think prosecuting the poorest most vulnerable people in our society is acceptable then you need to have a long hard look at yourself.

Buzzer · Feb 9, 2016

I'm not in favour of this at all but there are aggressive beggars that do need to be stopped and there are con artists too .

There's a woman at Brighton station I see regularly telling people that she needs the fare back to Burgess Hill as she's lost her purse - One day whilst waiting the half hour for my train I saw her do very well, must have raked in at least £20 and then she was back the next day with the same story. There's a bloke who seems to work a patch between the Franklin Pub end of Lewes Road, The Level and London Road who sells a great sob story about having to get a taxi to see his daughter. He even gets the waterworks going, very convincing - one week before Christmas he tried the same trick on me 4 days in a row.

The worst recently was the very aggressive Northern street drinker in the hi-viz coat who hung around the Level. I have seen him threaten people before and I've confronted him when he's had a go at snatching fags or booze off teenagers in the park. Saying that though, I did read in the B&H Independent that someone matching his description had OD'd and I haven't seen him around since Christmas.

It's a tough one, these people are at the very bottom of the pile with no dosh but the first two are con artists, pure and simple, and the second is/was a menace. You can't NOT do anything about it but I don't know what you can do.

bhanutz · Feb 9, 2016

What do the Greens think about it? Probably something along the lines of "to all the beggars in the UK, please come to Brighton..We will love you and hug you and give you all the money you want.."

TheJasperCo · Feb 9, 2016

Here in Newcastle, there was a major local scandal a couple of months back where it was revealed groups of fake "homeless" men were taking the train down from Scotland in the mornings, pretending to sleep rough and begging on the streets of Newcastle, then returning home again in the evenings. Professional con artists, and that's one of the reasons I am reluctant to trust homeless folks on the street. I will never give them money, but I would offer to buy them food or even offer to get them a blanket, such are the weather conditions around these parts.

Acker79 · Feb 9, 2016

The other side to the argument:

WHILE I commend the Argus for raising the issue of enforcement of the begging laws, the feature in Monday’s edition failed to explain the actually rather compassionate case for the police taking enforcement action.

This is not some random, oppressive policy but carefully targeted action which is one small part of an overall strategy to help the homeless.

In some cases prosecution is necessary because the person begging is not actually homeless and is in effect engaging in a form of fraud on the generous public.

In other cases there may be genuinely homeless people, sometimes with complex drink, drug and/or mental health problems, who refuse to engage with the various agencies trying to help rough sleepers.

In these cases it is only with the coercion of the law – ie the prospect of prosecution – that some vulnerable people will accept help.

Rather than the cruel, uncaring, thoughtless policy that the Argus article implied, a carefully targeted prosecution policy is sometimes the only way of ensuring the most vulnerable people receive the help they need.

Fifteen years ago when I was in CID, we had a problem with begging and there was a real mixture of people.

One man we caught lived in Worthing and used to commute in on the train. He was an exception but there is a real mixture. Most of the money given in begging is spent on drugs and we had people who had been in prison who would beg and spend the money on heroin but as they had not had the drug recently they would die.

There is no way that a person living on the street for eight years will not have been offered help by voluntary and statutory services in Brighton and Hove.

If someone refuses help, do you leave them on the streets or take action in a way that compels them to get help?

If you arrest them it can force them into counselling for a drug problem or whatever it is. So sometimes it needs that intervention. Some people are missing the point in that intervention can be very productive.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/opinion/o...policy_is_sometimes_necessary_to_help/?ref=eb

turienzo's lovechild · Feb 9, 2016

working in this 'sector' as I do, I know the gentleman involved very well. I won't go into too much detail but what I will say is that quite a fair bit of what has been printed about his situation is not entirely true.

From the story quoted directly above- I think the following paragraph is pretty important

"There is no way that a person living on the street for eight years will not have been offered help by voluntary and statutory services in Brighton and Hove."

tiberious · Feb 9, 2016

Braggfan said:
The police get upset when the public are negative towards them, but the sad thing is, for all the good work they do this sort of operation is only ever going to bring negativity upon them.

I help at the Brighton Soup run and in the summer we had an incident where someone with clear mental health issues was being aggressive and abusive to passers-by. A passing police officer did an amazing job of calming the situation down and then resolving it. They have my full respect for that. It wasn’t a nice job to do and they did it excellently, admirably and professionally. But then I’m left agog hearing the stories of people being arrested for begging.

It seems so inconsistent, almost as if the two ends of the spectrum are being dealt with the wrong way round. Apart from being immoral in my opinion, it seems such a waste of time and money to pursue begging in this way, and those resources could surely be better spent elsewhere. In terms of why you want to do this, it comes across as an easy win for the police, who can bump up their arrests stats and tick all the boxes, through from arresting someone, taking them to court, and successfully prosecuting them. It's not a good use of money, it doesn't benefit anyone other than police.

if you do the soup run you will know not all of these people are homeless, also that not all but a lot use the money to buy drugs.. also that a number again not all leave their dirty used needles around for other people to pick up or worse get pricked by. Should the police ignore the people who call in complaining about people begging abusive drunks urinating in public ? The Argus gives a list of names perhaps they should try and find out where they were arrested and speak to the local traders and residents in the area. Also I wonder how many of that list in the paper are already known for other crimes ??

ThePompousPaladin · Feb 9, 2016

Acker79 said:
If you arrest them it can force them into counselling for a drug problem or whatever it is. So sometimes it needs that intervention. Some people are missing the point in that intervention can be very productive.[/indent]

http://www.theargus.co.uk/opinion/o...policy_is_sometimes_necessary_to_help/?ref=eb

Interesting, i wonder how many 'positive' results they've had, or if it's just spin.

spring hall convert · Feb 10, 2016

The number of homeless people in Britain's cities has increased so significantly it is obvious to the naked eye.

Must be lots of lifestyle choices and nothing to do with austerity.

turienzo's lovechild · Feb 10, 2016

spring hall convert said:
The number of homeless people in Britain's cities has increased so significantly it is obvious to the naked eye.

Must be lots of lifestyle choices and nothing to do with austerity.

you're correct in that numbers have increased nationally. Interestingly, numbers DROPPED in Brighton & Hove in 2015

spring hall convert · Feb 10, 2016

turienzo's lovechild said:
you're correct in that numbers have increased nationally. Interestingly, numbers DROPPED in Brighton & Hove in 2015

Interesting numbers. I reckon there was a huge increase in Brighton from 2010-2015, perhaps over and above the national trend? Just gut feel though.

Walk around the city centre at night now and there is barely a suitable doorway or alcove left not being slept in. It's a sorry, sorry state of affairs and a sad indictment on us.

turienzo's lovechild · Feb 10, 2016

spring hall convert said:
Interesting numbers. I reckon there was a huge increase in Brighton from 2010-2015, perhaps over and above the national trend? Just gut feel though.

Walk around the city centre at night now and there is barely a suitable doorway or alcove left not being slept in. It's a sorry, sorry state of affairs and a sad indictment on us.

yes that is about right. I feel like 2015 was perhaps a bit of an anomaly and we'll continue to see a rise in 2016. Brighton & Hove certainly has an above average homeless population which places a huge burden on services that most other towns & cities simply don't experience. Fortunately, homeless services in the city are superb and are just about coping

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