Europe: In or Out

JC Footy Genius · Feb 1, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Frame it in your anti-EU agenda as much as you like the Greek's had three votes on a Grexit and decided to stay put. They had a clear choice of stay on mutually agreed terms, or go. Your I-know-better-than-the-people-of-Scotland-and-Greece arrogance is breathtaking. Will you still be whining if (when) the UK have democratically decided to stay put?

Just adding some factual information and context to your Europhile script lines.

They had a clear choice of accepting ongoing austerity, tax rises and privatisation or economic collapse and Grexit.

Remind me who said the people of Scotland will almost certainly vote out if we leave the EU and that Greeks were 'happy' with the horrendous situation they now find themselves in?

Well I could adopt the same attitude to Referendums that the EU does ie Completely ignore them if they get the wrong answer or keep asking the question until they get their way.

Buzzer · Feb 1, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Frame it in your anti-EU agenda as much as you like the Greek's had three votes on a Grexit and decided to stay put. They had a clear choice of stay on mutually agreed terms, or go. Your I-know-better-than-the-people-of-Scotland-and-Greece arrogance is breathtaking. Will you still be whining if (when) the UK have democratically decided to stay put?

That's simply not true.

You are trying to project that election win as some sort of show of Greek support for German plans but on that one specific issue I can say with a huge degree of certainty that the Greek people rejected the German plans because there was a referendum on this specific point. The Greeks voted 60% to 40% to reject it. Syriza completely ignored this and caved in to the German demands. The fact that they subsequently won an election in September is down to several factors: the paucity of any credible opposition, huge voter apathy, their defending position was extremely strong, there were also a whole raft of other policies away from the Euro crisis that they stood on.

On the clear choice of staying on mutually agreed terms the Greek people said an emphatic NO.

Pretty pink fairy · Feb 1, 2016

don quixote said:
it's a bit embarrassing watching the prime minister going around pleading with the eu for some reforms when this country is the second biggest economy in europe.

just goes to show how much we're being mugged off :angry:

regards
DR

BigGully · Feb 1, 2016

heathgate said:
No..they need us in politically because we have some clout on a world stage, still. Without us in the club, they lose some political and diplomatic muscle....economically it's still a moot point, trade will still take place with and outwith the EU group...trade sanctions or restrictions are illegal..so for me I would prefer to be in, but leaving behind the social and political agenda would be refreshing if we vote that way next year.

But you are trying to disassociate our inevitable continued political union should we stay, accepting everything has an element of political consequence, we can only really find some return of self governance outside of it.

Our own political and diplomatic 'muscle' as you say is reason why we would survive just dandily out if it as would the EU without us, the European political leaders would just be worried with other member states following suit and the whole political project collapsing, now more than ever that wouldnt be such a bad thing.

heathgate · Feb 1, 2016

BigGully said:
But you are trying to disassociate our inevitable continued political union should we stay, accepting everything has an element of political consequence, we can only really find some return of self governance outside of it.

Our own political and diplomatic 'muscle' as you say is reason why we would survive just dandily out if it as would the EU without us, the European political leaders would just be worried with other member states following suit and the whole political project collapsing, now more than ever that wouldnt be such a bad thing.

I am hoping that Merkel and Juncker will see that a multi pace structure is the way to go....given the huge changes Europe has seen and will see over the next generation. They must acknowledge that the migrant issue has kicked their smooth running journey to the United States of Europe off thr rails somewhat, the goal posts have shifted and nobody really knows where they will stop.

BigGully · Feb 1, 2016

heathgate said:
I am hoping that Merkel and Juncker will see that a multi pace structure is the way to go....given the huge changes Europe has seen and will see over the next generation. They must acknowledge that the migrant issue has kicked their smooth running journey to the United States of Europe off thr rails somewhat, the goal posts have shifted and nobody really knows where they will stop.

But for me this is just one of the problems, the migrant and Euro crisis was wholly EU made, they seem not to know the consequences of their policies, I originally was pragmatic, join both the EU and the Euro if it improved me and my families standard of living, but both have been a dog and delivered wholly by politicians and not circumstance.

The thought of putting any great trust in Merkel and Juncker to pull a rabbit out the hat is almost laughable, you seem to want them to somehow recalibrate Europes structure to resemble something similar to if we got out anyway, whats the point of having to contribute £Billions to resemble something that might cost us nothing.

heathgate · Feb 1, 2016

BigGully said:
But for me this is just one of the problems, the migrant and Euro crisis was wholly EU made, they seem not to know the consequences of their policies, I originally was pragmatic, join both the EU and the Euro if it improved me and my families standard of living, but both have been a dog and delivered wholly by politicians and not circumstance.

The thought of putting any great trust in Merkel and Juncker to pull a rabbit out the hat is almost laughable, you seem to want them to somehow recalibrate Europes structure to resemble something similar to if we got out anyway, whats the point of having to contribute £Billions to resemble something that might cost us nothing.

I just want a deal that suits this country better than the present one that feeds into the Franco-German agenda.

Leave if it doesn't suit,... but stay if we get what we need,.. then work further from the inside to improve.

I am a tad ambivalent to be honest, but the migrant issue is going to bite everyone very hard in the next ten years. .. so action is required.

cunning fergus · Feb 1, 2016

heathgate said:
I just want a deal that suits this country better than the present one that feeds into the Franco-German agenda.

Leave if it doesn't suit,... but stay if we get what we need,.. then work further from the inside to improve.

I am a tad ambivalent to be honest, but the migrant issue is going to bite everyone very hard in the next ten years. .. so action is required.

Then surely we must leave.

I used to remember when the pro Euro politicians used to say there would never be a 2 speed Europe, and yet now that's the solution to a problem the very same politicains and their enthusiasts created. For the euro to survive this new solution will inevitibly draw those countries in the eurozone closer together, if (and its a big if) they can get their own electorates to agree to a loss of fiscal sovereignty.

This will mean in a few years time (asssuming the euro has not collapsed from within) then those outside the eurozone may as well be outside the EU, because political and strategic decisions will be driven by the eurozone bloc for the benefit of the euro bloc.

Whilst Germany has benefitted from the euro, their electorate has shown no willingness to get involved in creating a truly eurozone wide fiscal compact which would mean money transfers to the poorer euro states. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the country that has gained the most from the EU is the country that wont be prepared to take that complete step to secure its future.

This is really the point about this debate, the pro EU side cannot predict stability, the future is equally just as much up in the air with staying in as leaving.

Voting in could be the equivalent of being chained to a corpse.

Pretty pink fairy · Feb 1, 2016

Seems to be an increase in foriegners living in councill accommodation in whitehawk have the locals given up and moved out ?

regards
DR

The Rivet · Feb 1, 2016

For me there is a definitive split in relation to ideology and personal benefit concerning the referendum vote. Business wants what's best for the bottom line. If you work for exporting/importing companies/pan European companies you want to protect what you have. Hence the scare tactics. However if you feel that you personally do not benefit to a good extent by being in the EU then what? Some companies like Hitachi imply it would be better out (alongside others) than belong to this EU.
Should we vote again on this threads monthly anniversary until the actual referendum?

Deleted member 22389 · Feb 2, 2016

Pathetic from Cameron, but did we expect anything different.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 2, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
Just adding some factual information and context to your Europhile script lines.

They had a clear choice of accepting ongoing austerity, tax rises and privatisation or economic collapse and Grexit.

Remind me who said the people of Scotland will almost certainly vote out if we leave the EU and that Greeks were 'happy' with the horrendous situation they now find themselves in?

Whatever way you dress this up (and claiming your opinions as fact and dismissing everything else seems to be your modus operandi) the Greeks without doubt had got themselves into a very very difficult situation; I don't disagree with this. But, their long road to recovery had three paths all of which were explored: one their own, with another partner or with the EU. Each path was rocky but then it would be given their predicament; there wasn't going to be a fairy waving her wand over this situation. Also they clearly couldn't carry on the way they had been and some tough home choices had to be made irrespective of the path they chose. They voted on who they thought domestically could resolve this situation and then again on what they thought was the best way ahead. This is democracy.....something the Greeks know a think or two about. No fairy with a wand but there was a friendly neighbourly hand.

heathgate · Feb 2, 2016

bashlsdir said:
Pathetic from Cameron, but did we expect anything different.

You don't even know the deal yet, wind your bigoted neck in.

Deleted member 22389 · Feb 2, 2016

heathgate said:
You don't even know the deal yet, wind your bigoted neck in.

A red card system apparently so we can appose EU laws, it means nothing. Secondly it is up to all the other countries to agree to it first.

Westdene Seagull · Feb 2, 2016

heathgate said:
You don't even know the deal yet, wind your bigoted neck in.

Well we know the planned outline of some of the deal. Regardless, how does bashlsdir considering what has been detailed so far being pathetic make him a bigot ?

heathgate · Feb 2, 2016

Westdene Seagull said:
Well we know the planned outline of some of the deal. Regardless, how does bashlsdir considering what has been detailed so far being pathetic make him a bigot ?

More than that,... its the pathetic "i'll vote against whatever the conservatives agree to".... before hearing what is on the table. Politics based on inverse snobbery, and nothing else. Just maybe the deal that arrives later today is a good starting position for us all, those who want IN and those who want OUT. This is national politics, not party politics.

Deleted member 22389 · Feb 2, 2016

heathgate said:
More than that,... its the pathetic "i'll vote against whatever the conservatives agree to".... before hearing what is on the table. Politics based on inverse snobbery, and nothing else. Just maybe the deal that arrives later today is a good starting position for us all, those who want IN and those who want OUT. This is national politics, not party politics.

It's nothing to do with the Tories whatsoever, it's to do with getting the bloody truth and not getting stitched up on any deals we make with the EU.

Westdene Seagull · Feb 2, 2016

heathgate said:
More than that,... its the pathetic "i'll vote against whatever the conservatives agree to".... before hearing what is on the table. Politics based on inverse snobbery, and nothing else. Just maybe the deal that arrives later today is a good starting position for us all, those who want IN and those who want OUT. This is national politics, not party politics.

You're obviously reading some text that is invisible on my screen then. You clearly trust Cameron to not use spin and smoke & mirrors when he presents the deal .... just like when he didn't use these tools when telling us we wouldn't be paying that sudden very large bill ..... but of course we did pay it. I couldn't care less what Cameron gets as a deal, it won't make a blind bit of difference in the long run, so it has to be OUT regardless.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 2, 2016

Westdene Seagull said:
I couldn't care less what Cameron gets as a deal

Isnt this a bit prejudiced? Personally I will wait and with an informed mind vote for what's best for the UK.

heathgate · Feb 2, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Isnt this a bit prejudiced? Personally I will wait and with an informed mind vote for what's best for the UK.

Is the right answer.

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