CORBYN, McDONNELL AND LIVINGSTONE.

jakarta · Nov 22, 2015

glasfryn said:
so this is why all the tory boys are panicking is it
constantly talking about JC .........deflecting from the shite they are now in

I don't think there is any panic from the Tories at all, they could announce the massacre of the first born tomorrow morning and the current Labour line-up would balls up their response. As per my previous post I'm not celebrating this, we need an effective Opposition but what we have at the moment is sixth-form...

beorhthelm · Nov 22, 2015

The Merry Prankster said:
Candidates aren't selected by their constituents, they are selected by the local party members. The party members who elected Corbyn. Remember Corbyn won across the board. Party members as well as Union affiliates and £3ers. It would be very odd if those self same members voted to select as their candidate someone who was deliberately undermining Corbyn.

those party members are the same that selected the current MPs. i'd expect the incumbants to have broad support from the local party members, otherwise they wouldnt be there. the £3er's will be brought in to change the balance in favour of the new left project. nothing wrong with that, thats how parties and politics change.

i dont know from where some are getting the idea that Corbyn supporters are part of a large group of the electorate who's voice is unheard. they've paid to join and vote for a party leadership, i'd wager that they typically voters. they are minority within a minority, that are particularly politically engaged. they dont necessarily represent some hidden electorate, they represent themselves. they might be taping into a wider electorate, if so its one that apparently hasnt voted for several elections nor formed they own party to challenge Labour from the left. so probably not.

Igzilla · Nov 22, 2015

Interesting from Nick Robinson, concerned about anti-Corbyn bias from the BBC. A good highlight on Laura Kussenberg, probably the most blatantly right wing journo ever to be Political Editor for the BBC.

http://www.thecanary.co/2015/11/20/nick-robinson-accuses-bbc-anti-corbyn-bias/

The Merry Prankster · Nov 22, 2015

beorhthelm said:
those party members are the same that selected the current MPs. i'd expect the incumbants to have broad support from the local party members, otherwise they wouldnt be there. the £3er's will be brought in to change the balance in favour of the new left project. nothing wrong with that, thats how parties and politics change.

Those party members voted Corbyn in. He got a majority amongst party members. They may drop their support for him when it comes to selecting candidates but I'll be surprised.

Hampster Gull · Nov 22, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
I think it's way to early to judge Corbyn's Labour. It's a radical change of direction and philosophy and there will be some pain and bloodshed. I'd be more worried if there wasn't. The party will take a while to settle. Time will tell.

Agree its early and things can change but i think thats more hope than expectation from you HT. My half term report for JC and team is D- and could do much better

JC Footy Genius · Nov 22, 2015

Hampster Gull said:
My half term report for JC and team is D- and could do much better

A bit on the high side. It will all end with a few suspensions followed by a permanent exclusion.

GT49er · Nov 22, 2015

Hampster Gull said:
Agree its early and things can change but i think thats more hope than expectation from you HT. My half term report for JC and team is D- and could do much better

Think that should be JC OR team rather than JC AND team. The only people he can at present pick his team from are the PLP, most of whom didn't want him anyway, most of them being post-Blairites. The only people in the PLP who'll play are those who were nowhere near the top echelons of the party before. Will be interesting to see how this pans out.
However it turns out, however, it's p1ssed off an awful lot of people (even some on here!) who it is really good to have p1ssed off, so I'll just stay happy with that. It's like being second in the league with no idea where that will take us and the media refusing to take Brighton as a top team seriously.............

beorhthelm · Nov 22, 2015

The Merry Prankster said:
Those party members voted Corbyn in. He got a majority amongst party members.

technically 49% from full members. not to mention all those that didnt vote (25% of the total eligable). one could believe that members that (re)selected candidates in the past year would turn on them post election, i dont see it myself. national support for Corbyn doesnt automatically translate to similar support in each constituency either.

JC Footy Genius · Nov 22, 2015

GT49er said:
T It's like being second in the league with no idea where that will take us and the media refusing to take Brighton as a top team seriously.............

Or like having Ronnie Pickering and his best mate take over at one of the top two clubs in the country then wondering why they are 7 points adrift at the bottom of the table.

Tarpon · Nov 23, 2015

beorhthelm said:
i dont know from where some are getting the idea that Corbyn supporters are part of a large group of the electorate who's voice is unheard. they've paid to join and vote for a party leadership, i'd wager that they typically voters. they are minority within a minority, that are particularly politically engaged. they dont necessarily represent some hidden electorate, they represent themselves. they might be taping into a wider electorate, if so its one that apparently hasnt voted for several elections nor formed they own party to challenge Labour from the left. so probably not.

I think it's a bit more nuanced than you suggest. No one predicted what happened with Corbyn or anything like it (least of all himself) & his leadership success wasn't planned or anticipated.

His appeal to date appears to be based primarily in him not being classed as one of the Westminster establishment while offering genuinely alternative views on key issues alongside an undertaking to further democratise the institutions of government via 'honest' politics. Essentially he seems to attract people whose level of trust and confidence in the current (cross party) political and business elite has been severely eroded or never really existed.

I don't know how many of these people feel their voice has not been heard in the past but the fact that they may have previously voted and/or been politically engaged doesn't automatically mean they are satisfied in this respect or that they are not potentially representative of other (none voting) disenfranchised citizens.

So I think Corbyn has tapped into something but it's not clear how far he can take it. The challenge for him is to seek to maintain popular momentum in the face of apparently insurmountable cultural, political and economic odds. Given an even playing field it would be interesting to see how he got on; after all there are a significant number of people who never or very rarely vote (the hidden electorate) and these are tough times (with more to come as Gideon irreversibly shrinks the state beyond all recognition prior to no doubt taking his foot off the gas as we approach 2020).

Any real democrats would welcome engagement with the silent masses. However, even if he made more progress, it simply will not happen under Corbyn. The odds are too great & his Leadership success and brief flurry of popularism surprised the Establishment & they don't much like surprises. In the v unlikely event that he starts getting a popular head of steam up he'll be run out of town. In the meantime he'll be tolerated as a distraction stopping people looking too hard at what is actually going on by those who wield real power.

BadFish · Nov 23, 2015

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/jeremy-corbyn-poll-numbers-v-ed-miliband-2015-11?r=UK&IR=T

not sure if this has been posted but it seems the spin is not entirely accurate.

Herr Tubthumper · Nov 23, 2015

GT49er said:
That's the trouble. It isn't really, is it? They can vote for a candidate, certainly, but it will be a candidate who is standing for a party, so what they're really voting for is a package, the contents of which they have no control over really.
Party 1 offers policies A, B and C. Hmm - I like B and C, but don't agree with A.
Party 2 offers policies A, B (the same) and D. Don't want A, like B (as before) and quite like D.
So which party do I vote for? Either way I'm voting for policy A, which I fundamentally don't agree with.

This is politics I'm afraid. I have never subscribed to every Labour policy, in fact I have strongly opposed a few. And I actually think the Tories are stepping in the right direction on the buy-2-let tax.

Herr Tubthumper · Nov 23, 2015

Hampster Gull said:
Agree its early and things can change but i think thats more hope than expectation from you HT. My half term report for JC and team is D- and could do much better

It's definitely hope; it would be foolish of me to "expect". What is clear to me is that something different is happening. My own experience is interesting. I'm a founding member of an international branch of the party. We had just 3 members and struggled to get anyone else interested/join. But since Corbyn put himself forward we have swelled to 18/19. It's a wide ranging bunch of people with quite contrasting reasons for joining. How far this goes and where it ends is difficult to predict.

BLOCK F · Nov 23, 2015

Tarpon said:
I think it's a bit more nuanced than you suggest. No one predicted what happened with Corbyn or anything like it (least of all himself) & his leadership success wasn't planned or anticipated.

His appeal to date appears to be based primarily in him not being classed as one of the Westminster establishment while offering genuinely alternative views on key issues alongside an undertaking to further democratise the institutions of government via 'honest' politics. Essentially he seems to attract people whose level of trust and confidence in the current (cross party) political and business elite has been severely eroded or never really existed.

I don't know how many of these people feel their voice has not been heard in the past but the fact that they may have previously voted and/or been politically engaged doesn't automatically mean they are satisfied in this respect or that they are not potentially representative of other (none voting) disenfranchised citizens.

So I think Corbyn has tapped into something but it's not clear how far he can take it. The challenge for him is to seek to maintain popular momentum in the face of apparently insurmountable cultural, political and economic odds. Given an even playing field it would be interesting to see how he got on; after all there are a significant number of people who never or very rarely vote (the hidden electorate) and these are tough times (with more to come as Gideon irreversibly shrinks the state beyond all recognition prior to no doubt taking his foot off the gas as we approach 2020).

Any real democrats would welcome engagement with the silent masses. However, even if he made more progress, it simply will not happen under Corbyn. The odds are too great & his Leadership success and brief flurry of popularism surprised the Establishment & they don't much like surprises. In the v unlikely event that he starts getting a popular head of steam up he'll be run out of town. In the meantime he'll be tolerated as a distraction stopping people looking too hard at what is actually going on by those who wield real power.

Reckon he will be run out of town by his own party.

Tarpon · Nov 23, 2015

BLOCK F said:
Reckon he will be run out of town by his own party.

Quite possibly/probably - that's one of the political factors against him & the current government will watch the infighting gleefully. Corbyn's only sustainable position against the vested interests of the majority of the PLP is a growing popular mandate that extends well beyond that which supported his Leadership success. Everything is against him including his & his close cohorts lack of experience at this level alongside a lack of party infrastructure to support him. Interesting nonetheless.

Albumen · Nov 23, 2015

Meanwhile, Cameron and Osborne spend £12bn on 128 stealth bombers while letting UK children starve due to 12bn welfare cuts. Lovely people.

Blue Valkyrie · Nov 23, 2015

As far as I can tell this new politics and democracy which seems to be pinned on Corbyn consists of 'his way or the highway' when it comes to policy

portslade seagull · Nov 23, 2015

Albumen said:
Meanwhile, Cameron and Osborne spend £12bn on 128 stealth bombers while letting UK children starve due to 12bn welfare cuts. Lovely people.

So you would rather a family living on benefits producing offspring just to get more handouts. The line has to be drawn somewhere. It's amazing how they always have enough for drink and fags and then complain they cannot afford to feed their children. I managed with 3 children and we struggled without any help and I had a low paid job. Priorities in afraid

Albumen · Nov 23, 2015

portslade seagull said:
So you would rather a family living on benefits producing offspring just to get more handouts. The line has to be drawn somewhere. It's amazing how they always have enough for drink and fags and then complain they cannot afford to feed their children. I managed with 3 children and we struggled without any help and I had a low paid job. Priorities in afraid

You know of such people?

portslade seagull · Nov 23, 2015

Albumen said:
You know of such people?

Plenty and they always have more money

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