Lord Mandelson finally admits we shouldn't join Euro.

larus · Oct 6, 2015

So, as the dipshit has finally realised he was totally wrong about the Euro, what should we think of his view about staying in Europe.

Convinced me: OUT.

I can really see momentum building towards an OUT vote here. Repatriation of powers from the unelected in Brussels. Especially as CMD will not get enough in the way of reforms to convince the public that he should be trusted.

Be intersting to see how the sweaties react if this happens. Will the have another referendum, even though their public finances would be decimated by the oil price drop.

Next couple of years could be interesting.

glasfryn · Oct 6, 2015

larus said:
So, as the dipshit has finally realised he was totally wrong about the Euro, what should we think of his view about staying in Europe.

Convinced me: OUT.

I can really see momentum building towards an OUT vote here. Repatriation of powers from the unelected in Brussels. Especially as CMD will not get enough in the way of reforms to convince the public that he should be trusted.

Be intersting to see how the sweaties react if this happens. Will the have another referendum, even though their public finances would be decimated by the oil price drop.

Next couple of years could be interesting.

up till about 5 years ago I was always an inny, but am now convinced we can go it alone, I am afraid Europe is going to hell on a handcart, this is also I am afraid not Labour policy (or is it) but you have to be honest.
I think as I have said before unless dave pulls a very large rabbit out of the hat he will be a goner long before the next election,as you say very interesting times ahead

beorhthelm · Oct 6, 2015

glasfryn said:
... this is also I am afraid not Labour policy (or is it)

well Corbyn has been unusally vague on this one hasn't he? given a in-as-long-as-its-good view without much qualification on whats good. he's clearly skeptical but doesnt want to show his hand, except to say he'd be opposed to EU if labour rights are reduced. i cant see him signing up to TIPP which will impact workers more than anything Cameron is likely win in this area (i dont even think its an area of concern, we already have the opt out of working time). i can see Labour going anti-EU, partly just to distance from the pro-EU New Labour and partly because its never sat well with the unions.

Blue Valkyrie · Oct 6, 2015

larus said:
So, as the dipshit has finally realised he was totally wrong about the Euro, what should we think of his view about staying in Europe.

Convinced me: OUT.

I can really see momentum building towards an OUT vote here. Repatriation of powers from the unelected in Brussels. Especially as CMD will not get enough in the way of reforms to convince the public that he should be trusted.

Be intersting to see how the sweaties react if this happens. Will the have another referendum, even though their public finances would be decimated by the oil price drop.

Next couple of years could be interesting.

Yep, another Scottish independence vote would be guaranteed, with the breakup of the UK following on.

And then anyone who wants to remain in the EU could move to Scotland, and any Scots who want oot could move to England.

Herr Tubthumper · Oct 6, 2015

Blue Valkyrie said:
Yep, another Scottish independence vote would be guaranteed, with the breakup of the UK following on.

And then anyone who wants to remain in the EU could move to Scotland, and any Scots who want oot could move to England.

I wonder what the rules on Scottish passports will be?

Machiavelli · Oct 6, 2015

Blue Valkyrie said:
Yep, another Scottish independence vote would be guaranteed, with the breakup of the UK following on.

And then anyone who wants to remain in the EU could move to Scotland, and any Scots who want oot could move to England.

This is the scenario that the SNP is holding out for.
On another note, I see that this thread isn't about the Euro, it's about the EU.
Can those in the OUT/NO camp please explain why this is so important to you -- and me?

glasfryn · Oct 6, 2015

beorhthelm said:

well Corbyn has been unusally vague on this one hasn't he?

Click to expand...

beorhthelm said:
given a in-as-long-as-its-good view without much qualification on whats good. he's clearly skeptical but doesnt want to show his hand, except to say he'd be opposed to EU if labour rights are reduced. i cant see him signing up to TIPP which will impact workers more than anything Cameron is likely win in this area (i dont even think its an area of concern, we already have the opt out of working time). i can see Labour going anti-EU, partly just to distance from the pro-EU New Labour and partly because its never sat well with the unions.

give him time he will work it out
I am sure he will come round to my way of thinking :lolol:

beorhthelm · Oct 6, 2015

Machiavelli said:
Can those in the OUT/NO camp please explain why this is so important to you -- and me?

i'd say for me, in brief, its about sovereignty and the loss of power to determine our own laws to our culture and traditions, to a foreign organisation with no real democracy. we dont fit with many of the Europeans, some differences for the better some for the worse, but they are there. the objectives have been surreptitiously changed beneath out feet and contrary to many european's expectations too. it is a corrupt political behemoth that serves its own purposes more than those it claims to represent. see refugee/immigration crisis, TIPP for topical examples. (bit longer than the brief intended)

Machiavelli · Oct 6, 2015

beorhthelm said:
i'd say for me, in brief, its about sovereignty and the loss of power to determine our own laws to our culture and traditions, to a foreign organisation with no real democracy. we dont fit with many of the Europeans, some differences for the better some for the worse, but they are there. the objectives have been surreptitiously changed beneath out feet and contrary to many european's expectations too. it is a corrupt political behemoth that serves its own purposes more than those it claims to represent. example, see TIPP. (bit longer than the brief intended)

Thanks. Your argument is in-line with many, but it's not one that convinces me. What about the loss of sovereignty courtesy of membership of the UN, WTO, IMF, World Bank, Kyoto Protocol, the City of London, finance, capital, ...? Do any of these bother you? Why is it the EU that always gets singled out on the front, and all others are utterly ignored?

beorhthelm · Oct 6, 2015

Machiavelli said:
Thanks. Your argument is in-line with many, but it's not one that convinces me. What about the loss of sovereignty courtesy of membership of the UN, WTO, IMF, World Bank, Kyoto Protocol, the City of London, finance, capital, ...? Do any of these bother you? Why is it the EU that always gets singled out on the front, and all others are utterly ignored?

i cant say i'm not aware of any loss of sovereignty to those organistations. where we have agreed to something at their behest we have signed up to it willfully - theres not much wrong with signing up to a trade deal. the issue with the EU is that one treaty after another is signed off without proper authority of parliament or the population, and that additional powers are sub-marined in under the cover old treaties. and then the proponents of the "European project" dont even play by their own rules, finding loopholes and workarounds to skirt around the conditions they have set. example, we are planning to close all our coal power stations to comply with EU carbon targets, while Germany is building more, hiding them behind industrial use exemptions.

Triggaaar · Oct 7, 2015

Blue Valkyrie said:
Yep, another Scottish independence vote would be guaranteed

When there was the first vote, the SNP didn't want Scottish people who were not living in Scotland to vote, but for the EU vote they want British people who've left Britain to have the vote. Funny that.

DavidinSouthampton · Oct 7, 2015

beorhthelm said:
i cant say i'm not aware of any loss of sovereignty to those organistations. where we have agreed to something at their behest we have signed up to it willfully - theres not much wrong with signing up to a trade deal. the issue with the EU is that one treaty after another is signed off without proper authority of parliament or the population, and that additional powers are sub-marined in under the cover old treaties. and then the proponents of the "European project" dont even play by their own rules, finding loopholes and workarounds to skirt around the conditions they have set. example, we are planning to close all our coal power stations to comply with EU carbon targets, while Germany is building more, hiding them behind industrial use exemptions.

Is this why, when the Tories tasked the Civil Service with compiling a list of powers that we would want to repatriate for the negotiations, they couldn't find any. This was something not reported - surprise surprise - by most of the press in the run up to the election.

Herr Tubthumper · Oct 7, 2015

beorhthelm said:
i'd say for me, in brief, its about sovereignty and the loss of power to determine our own laws to our culture and traditions, to a foreign organisation with no real democracy. we dont fit with many of the Europeans, some differences for the better some for the worse, but they are there. the objectives have been surreptitiously changed beneath out feet and contrary to many european's expectations too. it is a corrupt political behemoth that serves its own purposes more than those it claims to represent. see refugee/immigration crisis, TIPP for topical examples. (bit longer than the brief intended)

I'm with Machiavelli; this argument doesn't convince me for the same reasons he provides. Above all, and in most walks of my life, I believe in co-operation, hence I'm in. Sure, parts are not perfect. But I'd rather be inside shaping the future than isolated and outside.

beorhthelm · Oct 7, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
I'm with Machiavelli; this argument doesn't convince me for the same reasons he provides. Above all, and in most walks of my life, I believe in co-operation, hence I'm in. Sure, parts are not perfect. But I'd rather be inside shaping the future than isolated and outside.

Machiavelli hasnt really provided any reasons, just a list of international organisations (and the City of London, wonder where that is going). we dont *need* political integration to co-operate, i could sign up to free trade, free movement of labour, many aspects of europan common market. why does there need to be a parliament, with no real power, issuing edicts to 28 nations; why an unelected commission making new laws that we have to adopt. the project goes far beyond co-operation, as we have seen with the Euro, and recent the failure of the euro to function correctly.

Herr Tubthumper · Oct 7, 2015

beorhthelm said:
Machiavelli hasnt really provided any reasons, just a list of international organisations (and the City of London, wonder where that is going). we dont *need* political integration to co-operate, i could sign up to free trade, free movement of labour, many aspects of europan common market. why does there need to be a parliament, with no real power, issuing edicts to 28 nations; why an unelected commission making new laws that we have to adopt. the project goes far beyond co-operation, as we have seen with the Euro, and recent the failure of the euro to function correctly.

Who would you sign up to Europe wide? Who does the streamlining of the trading areas which needs to be in place otherwise you'd just sign up to each of the 26 nations separately? There has to be something in place.

Mo Gosfield · Oct 7, 2015

As the Second World War drew to an end, certain influential Germans decided that if they couldn't control Europe politically, then they would do so economically. By careful management, they have seen the EU grow to 28 member states and their position getting stronger and stronger.
They are the single biggest contributor to the EU and so they should be, as they have the largest economy. If you look a little deeper though, you will see that they are only 9th on the list for contribution per head of population and 24th out of 28 for their contribution as a % of their GDP. Need I say more!
Europe's combined economy has grown in recent years but it has actually shrunk as a percentage of the World economy.
1980.....30%
2015.....17%
Other markets are growing faster.
The powers to be within the EU are so desperate to keep persuading others that membership is vital that they budget up to £4bn annually for EU promotional spending and corporate communication of the political priorities of the union.
In 2013, the European Court of Auditors revealed that the EU had spent £7bn " not according to the rules " on all manner of items but particularly on the direct awarding of contracts with no bidding process.
Corruption is at such a level that accounts cannot be signed off and haven't been for years. The EU plays by its own rules as regards proper accounting practices but still manages to have a direct say in how we run our lives in this country.
Our gross contribution per day to the EU is around £55m and £20bn annually.

Deleted member 22389 · Oct 7, 2015

I say to those who support remaining part of the EU accept the Euro, otherwise we get out.

Blue Valkyrie · Oct 7, 2015

Machiavelli said:
This is the scenario that the SNP is holding out for.
On another note, I see that this thread isn't about the Euro, it's about the EU.
Can those in the OUT/NO camp please explain why this is so important to you -- and me?

Yes, the SNP probably are, but even if they tactically want an overall OUT vote, it only works for them if they have an IN vote in Scotland.

ditchy · Oct 7, 2015

beorhthelm said:
Machiavelli hasnt really provided any reasons, just a list of international organisations (and the City of London, wonder where that is going). we dont *need* political integration to co-operate, i could sign up to free trade, free movement of labour, many aspects of europan common market. why does there need to be a parliament, with no real power, issuing edicts to 28 nations; why an unelected commission making new laws that we have to adopt. the project goes far beyond co-operation, as we have seen with the Euro, and recent the failure of the euro to function correctly.

Exactly . as for the parliament debate the Union cannot even decide where to have its Parliament HQ and has to decamp once a month at huge expense to Strasbourg just to appease one nation on its ego to house its HQ !

Simster · Oct 7, 2015

beorhthelm said:
Machiavelli hasnt really provided any reasons, just a list of international organisations (and the City of London, wonder where that is going). we dont *need* political integration to co-operate, i could sign up to free trade, free movement of labour, many aspects of europan common market. why does there need to be a parliament, with no real power, issuing edicts to 28 nations; why an unelected commission making new laws that we have to adopt. the project goes far beyond co-operation, as we have seen with the Euro, and recent the failure of the euro to function correctly.

But what people like you continue to ignore is that in order to trade with the EU, we will *still* have to conform to EU standards. It's just that if we are on the outside, we won't get a say on what those standards actually are. Meanwhile, foreign investment will simply ignore the UK and new car plants will be built inside the EU instead, where trade barriers to a market of 400 million people will be considerably easier to overcome.

The whole Brexit argument is a nonsense. And we'd get our way in Europe if our politicians actually politicked properly. Instead, we have David Cameron acting like a tantrumming toddler over pretty much everything - for example who should be the president of the EU commission, where he campaigned to huge affect that Juncker should NOT be that man. And lost the vote 29-2.

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Lord Mandelson finally admits we shouldn't join Euro.

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