Jeremy Corbyn.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Aug 31, 2015

Soulman said:
The difference being that the SNP represented Scotland, their policies were for the Scottish people, in the 13 years that Labour were in power they showed indifference to the people of England backed up by some of their MP's speeches. They left the country in a poor state, and many do not have short memories, so the comparison with the SNP is a very poor example.

Nope, Scotland were traditionally staunch Labour. Time was when Scotland used to boast that the Tories were routed so badly that they had no mandate to govern North of the border. Now the same applies to Islington-focus-group-based Labour. Time to reconnect with the people.

Soulman · Aug 31, 2015

Tom Hark said:
Nope, Scotland were traditionally staunch Labour. Time was when Scotland used to boast that the Tories were routed so badly that they had no mandate to govern North of the border. Now the same applies to Islington-focus-group-based Labour. Time to reconnect with the people.

Good luck with that then. Perhaps if they started to concentrate on looking after the voters here, something they ignored especially in the latter years, they might get the working class vote back......i don't think they have learned though.

cunning fergus · Aug 31, 2015

Westdene Seagull said:
You seem to think people's convictions can't change ? As I've moved through life my convictions have changed due to my experiences - only those that refuse to change because of sheer bloody mindedness are the idiots.

And exactly who determines what socialism or capitalism are ? Ah, yes, some clever toff at LSE with utterly no life experience. Only because HT's form of socialism doesn't match the toff 'designated definition' doesn't mean it isn't socialism to him.

Not at all, I fully accept people convictions can change, politically religiously, socially et al.

At best I can see that in a social context, how many people have changed their previously held convictions in terms of race and sexual preference in the last 20 years, for example.

In the political context however I am more suspicious (or should I say cynical).

Take Shaun Woodward ex MP for the tories and labour, he crossed the floor when the tories were doomed in the 90s.

He was MP for Witney would you believe, we know who is sitting MP there now right?

And where did Tony Blair find a constituency for this ex tory? St Helens.

So was Shaun Woodward a man whose political convictions changed from Tory to Labour, (certainly easier in the neo liberal Labour Party), or was he just jumping on a bandwagon for power (he was in the cabinet as minister for NI by the way).

I suspect, being cynical, it was more to do with his marriage to a Sainsburys heiress and the economic and influential establishment patronage she could bring to bear.......previously greasing the tory party's wheels.

There are others too, Neil Kinnock rejection of socialism for the capitalist EU is another..........no doubt his role as a Commissioner and the riches that brings has nothing to do with it.

I'm sure there are people who turned their back on socialism in 94 and now want to be associated with political success with Corbyn.

They are like Woodward and Kinnock though........i.e. NOT socialist.

Soulman · Aug 31, 2015

Westdene Seagull said:
You seem to think people's convictions can't change ? As I've moved through life my convictions have changed due to my experiences - only those that refuse to change because of sheer bloody mindedness are the idiots.

And exactly who determines what socialism or capitalism are ? Ah, yes, some clever toff at LSE with utterly no life experience. Only because HT's form of socialism doesn't match the toff 'designated definition' doesn't mean it isn't socialism to him.

Peoples convictions can definitely change, i have never voted Tory, but have voted Labour, in fact it has taken Labour governments since the mid 70's for me to realise they cock things up, which is why 1997 was the last time i voted for them. A look at Kinnock, Blair, really good socialists eh.

cunning fergus · Aug 31, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
I give up.

Not yet Margaret.

What about clause 4, you supported its removal by Blair and embraced capitalism as a social democrat.

If Corbyn sticks to his guns we will have a fully public ownership of utilities and rail on the agenda..........and not like the predecessor of DB AG.

Will you turn your back on capitalism?

jakarta · Aug 31, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
Just you wait until you hear the make-up-again sex!

I think you'll find the chances of this happening between certain posters on this thread are pretty much... :flypig:

Herr Tubthumper · Aug 31, 2015

cunning fergus said:
Not yet Margaret.

What about clause 4, you supported its removal by Blair and embraced capitalism as a social democrat.

If Corbyn sticks to his guns we will have a fully public ownership of utilities and rail on the agenda..........and not like the predecessor of DB AG.

Will you turn your back on capitalism?

Did I? This is news to me. Or is this another of your childish "you supported Labour at the time so you must have supported blah blah" (said in a childish ner ner ner ner ner voice whilst making a sneering gesture towards Fergus)

Herr Tubthumper · Aug 31, 2015

cunning fergus said:
Not yet Margaret.

What about clause 4, you supported its removal by Blair and embraced capitalism as a social democrat.

If Corbyn sticks to his guns we will have a fully public ownership of utilities and rail on the agenda..........and not like the predecessor of DB AG.

Will you turn your back on capitalism?

Do you have learning difficulties? Aspergers maybe? You display a number of the traits.

Soulman · Aug 31, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
Do you have learning difficulties? Aspergers maybe? You display a number of the traits.

Low blow, obviously your opinions differ, but at least CF has a vested interest because he lives here.

cunning fergus · Aug 31, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
Do you have learning difficulties? Aspergers maybe? You display a number of the traits.

Come on, let's have a straight answer..........as a social democrat you are comfortable with private ownership of state assets, it's after all the economic cornerstone of the EU.

You've not been ashamed to support this previously as a neo liberal Labour Party member, so there's no need to be coy now.

In contrast Corbyn has referred to full public ownership and the reinstitution of aspects of the old clause IV which re-affirms Labour's re-commitment to its socialist origins.

This is not a minor nuance, this is core to Corbyn's socialist beliefs.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ion-what-is-all-the-fuss-about-reinstating-it

If you support Corbyn, it's out with many aspects of capitalism supported by Blair and opens a new battlefront with the EU.

So, are you for the reinstitution of clause IV...............yes or no?

cunning fergus · Aug 31, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
Did I? This is news to me. Or is this another of your childish "you supported Labour at the time so you must have supported blah blah" (said in a childish ner ner ner ner ner voice whilst making a sneering gesture towards Fergus)

I know, it's why you don't understand what socialism is.

You are a social democrat.........its what Tony Blair is, it's why he changed clause IV.

It removed full public ownership of state assets and introduced market economics and private ownership...........shareholders.

A reintroduction of clause IV is a full 180 degree about turn from social democracy and neo liberalism to socialism.

It's huge.........it's why Tony and his supporters are pissed off.

Castello · Aug 31, 2015

Pavilionaire said:
The other three losers might as well have not bothered. The only "debate" going on is Former Labour Leaders vs. Corbyn.

I can't believe Umunna left the contest, he would have walked it AND his party desperately needed him. If he thinks he'll be better off waiting another 5 years he mind find the party has been split in two by then and won't exist in its present guise.

As has already been said, it is unlikely he would have fared any better than kendall. The wave Corbyn is riding isnt about securing a win for a centre ground party. It's about changing the party andf Labour movement to a real opposition to austerity. Umunna wouldn't have been any different.

Indeed his treacherous remarks about creating a resistance have shown a real political weakness in understanding what is happening. That won't be forgotten by potential allies in the mould of John Prescott. Prescott who supports Burnham has made clear his contempt for the treachery of Umunna and Tristran Hunt. He will struggle to build alliances in the future.

Whatever happens, the labour party will be markedly different after September 13th. There will be real pressures from both right and left for a split. These pressures have been there for 5 years. For it to survive many politicians are going to have to both change attitudes to the public and learn a whole new political language of listening to the public and delivering on promises. Umunna will be unable to do this.

Change is coming. Whilst many on the right are celebrating, I suspect they will realise what is coming their way too late.

looney · Aug 31, 2015

LOL Here comes the Dinosaur party.

That Open borders policy of Comrade Corbyns is going to be a real vote winner.....for the tories/ukip etc etc. Remind me again what Karl Marx said about the value of labour?

Westdene Seagull · Aug 31, 2015

looney said:
That Open borders policy of Comrade Corbyns is going to be a real vote winner.....for the tories/ukip etc etc.

This is the same Corbyn that has opposed the EU previously ? :facepalm:

Herr Tubthumper · Aug 31, 2015

cunning fergus said:
So, are you for the reinstitution of clause IV...............yes or no?

Am I for the reinstitution of clause IV as it previously stood? No.
Am I for the reinstitution of an amended clause IV? Yes.

jakarta · Aug 31, 2015

Castello said:
As has already been said, it is unlikely he would have fared any better than kendall. The wave Corbyn is riding isnt about securing a win for a centre ground party. It's about changing the party andf Labour movement to a real opposition to austerity. Umunna wouldn't have been any different.

Indeed his treacherous remarks about creating a resistance have shown a real political weakness in understanding what is happening. That won't be forgotten by potential allies in the mould of John Prescott. Prescott who supports Burnham has made clear his contempt for the treachery of Umunna and Tristran Hunt. He will struggle to build alliances in the future.

Whatever happens, the labour party will be markedly different after September 13th. There will be real pressures from both right and left for a split. These pressures have been there for 5 years. For it to survive many politicians are going to have to both change attitudes to the public and learn a whole new political language of listening to the public and delivering on promises. Umunna will be unable to do this.

Change is coming. Whilst many on the right are celebrating, I suspect they will realise what is coming their way too late.

Contempt, Treachery?

Oh Comrades, where is the Love? :lolol:

Pavilionaire · Aug 31, 2015

Castello said:
As has already been said, it is unlikely he would have fared any better than kendall. The wave Corbyn is riding isnt about securing a win for a centre ground party. It's about changing the party andf Labour movement to a real opposition to austerity. Umunna wouldn't have been any different.

Indeed his treacherous remarks about creating a resistance have shown a real political weakness in understanding what is happening. That won't be forgotten by potential allies in the mould of John Prescott. Prescott who supports Burnham has made clear his contempt for the treachery of Umunna and Tristran Hunt. He will struggle to build alliances in the future.

Whatever happens, the labour party will be markedly different after September 13th. There will be real pressures from both right and left for a split. These pressures have been there for 5 years. For it to survive many politicians are going to have to both change attitudes to the public and learn a whole new political language of listening to the public and delivering on promises. Umunna will be unable to do this.

Change is coming. Whilst many on the right are celebrating, I suspect they will realise what is coming their way too late.

Umunna is a completely different political animal to Kendall, he is more articulate and intelligent, he has more appeal to Middle England than her because he is able to explain his politics in a logical and heartfelt way. With Kendall you get the impression she really is quite right-wing, and has no hope of ever uniting the party. I think Umunna has the charisma and intelligence required of a leader, and when Labour get their act together eventually he'll be in the mix.

beorhthelm · Aug 31, 2015

Pavilionaire said:
U... I think Umunna has the charisma and intelligence required of a leader, and when Labour get their act together eventually he'll be in the mix.

rather lacking in fortitude for a national leader though. his dropping out will come back to haunt him i suspect.

cunning fergus · Aug 31, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
Am I for the reinstitution of clause IV as it previously stood? No.
Am I for the reinstitution of an amended clause IV? Yes.

I see, interesting.

As it's already been amended once to enable the Blairites to introduce private ownership of state assets by capitalists, is there any point in changing it if it's not going to mean what the original stated......

"To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service."

You either want "common ownership" or you don't...........the Blairites didn't..........you don't sound like you do either.

I may be wrong though.........maybe there's a fourth way?

looney · Aug 31, 2015

I think Her Tubby is the kind of socialist that likes the way the bubbles make the nose tingle.

IMO if you advocate mass importation of cheap labour your an effing tory, scab labour on a massive scale. Will get the popcorn ready for Labours meltdown in mid september.

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