Mediterranean migrant deaths and CMD.

Nibble · Apr 21, 2015

As a Third World War heats up across the globe, I sincerely believe we are headed for total war within the next 8-10 years, and global corporations and governments rinse the earth of it's precious and dwindling resources we will see global population movement on a scale we can't comprehend. It's begun.

Hastings gull · Apr 21, 2015

BadFish said:
As a point of fact it is worth noting that if we are talking about migrants on a % of the population basis then Australia has a little more than double that of the UK.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2112rank.html

As you say, it has been a long or in my case, morning. I saw all these figures but quite frankly could not make that much of them. Whilst OZ probably has more than double the percentage per population, this could be misleading. Has this been over time? How likely are the refugees or whatever to embrace democratic values. Are you taking I n huge numbers every year, thus stretching the infrastructure. I think It is easy to trot out figures, but this tends to only tell half the story, but am not for one moment you are trying to mislead.

BadFish · Apr 21, 2015

Hastings gull said:
As you say, it has been a long or in my case, morning. I saw all these figures but quite frankly could not make that much of them. Whilst OZ probably has more than double the percentage per population, this could be misleading. Has this been over time? How likely are the refugees or whatever to embrace democratic values. Are you taking I n huge numbers every year, thus stretching the infrastructure. I think It is easy to trot out figures, but this tends to only tell half the story, but am not for one moment you are trying to mislead.

The data shows the net migration over a 6 month period.

I would certainly suggest that we have the space to accommodate the number of immigrants. Although it has been estimated that we don't have the water to sustain a population much larger than we now have).

If we look over time then statistics tell you that only 3% of Australia's population are indigenous to the country. Which is a massive jump over 200 years.

Your point about statistics is a good as they fail to take into account a range of factors. To me this brings into focus the same point about the immigration debate, namely that their are many other factors that affect the issue not just the sheer numbers of people coming into a country.

London Irish · Apr 21, 2015

Leekbrookgull said:
Maybe i am reading this situation wrongly,but until the'West' removed Gaddaffi Libya althrough ruled by a dictator was not in a state of cival war and chaos where as usual the innocent pay the biggest price,so much for your Arab Spring uprising Mr Cameron.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32382962

Syria is funnier though - Cameron there can't quite make up which side to bomb - two years ago it was Assad, lately it's been the Isis mob - flip a coin

BadFish · Apr 21, 2015

Nibble said:
As a Third World War heats up across the globe, I sincerely believe we are headed for total war within the next 8-10 years, and global corporations and governments rinse the earth of it's precious and dwindling resources we will see global population movement on a scale we can't comprehend. It's begun.

And my posts were accused of being negative

I hope to god you are wrong about this but sadly it is not inconceivable.

Hastings gull · Apr 21, 2015

BadFish said:
I would assume you are right and that they would say the same thing, given that in the info a few post back it says

Presumably the people who do not get accepted as refugees are not allowed to stay in the country, they are certainly not allowed to claim benefits like refugees and must make arrangements to leave the country (if they can't then arrangements are made for them (I know there are stories of people disappearing and living illegally in the UK but i don't know how many these represent).

So if they say that their lives are in danger and it is not true then they are not legally allowed to enter the UK this happens to 60% of asylum seekers.

I would agree that for most folk these definitions are academic. This concerns me as it is this kind of misunderstanding that allows misinformation to be circulated and causes the fear of all those evil Asylum seekers in Calais etc.

To me these distinctions are important as if we look at the figure we have around 6,000 failed asylum seekers which is 2% of all immigrants into the UK (Check my maths as it has been a long day). Even if we assumed that a quarter of those who sought asylum and failed to get refugee status absconded and became illegal immigrants hiding in the UK (I think this is way over the top and the % would be much much lower but i can't find that information anywhere) that means we are talking about 1.5% of the years migrant population of the UK that have come over and illegally settled.

Even if it is a misunderstanding, for most folk this is irrelevant. What concerns many people in the UK is the idea of mass immigration, and the possible negative consequences whatever label you want to put on it or whatever percentages you mention (not you personally!).

BadFish · Apr 21, 2015

Hastings gull said:
Even if it is a misunderstanding, for most folk this is irrelevant. What concerns many people in the UK is the idea of mass immigration, and the possible negative consequences whatever label you want to put on it or whatever percentages you mention (not you personally!).

I take your point and you are correct and that fact saddens me. I think that this small amount of immigrants should not be lumped in with the general cut and thrust of the immigration debate. This is a global humanitarian problem of which all countries should be attempting to be part of the solution. However these people are vilified, demonised and used as political pawns to gain votes.

Hastings gull · Apr 21, 2015

JCL666 said:
When it comes down to it I have to say that if my life was pretty crap, and the outlook for my family was bleak then I would do whatever I could to address that.

Which I guess is why I'm unlikely to ever believe that immigrants, asylum seekers etc should be turned away or demonised.

The answer(s) IMO don't lie in shutting borders. These people are not going to stop coming while there is such vast disparity between life outcomes throughout the world.

One last thing. They are human beings. In the case of those crossing the med, incredibly desperate human beings.

Of course this is how you would react, and presumably I would too, I imagine. But that still does not give them the right to turn up in Europe and say house, feed, educate me etc. It is a very difficult situation. And yes they are human beings, deservous of dignity etc. During the 7 leader debate, she in Scotland whom you would not wish to meet on a dark night, rounded on Farage, who claimed that 6000 Aids sufferers being treated on the NHS were foreigners, saying that they were human beings and that he should be ashamed of himself. All well and good. But that is not necessarily how others see it. Assuming that the figure of 6000 is correct - and it was not challenged - that would have implications for the funding of treatment for other folk, who had paid national insurance contributions, possibly for decades. If your loved one received less than perfect treatment, or you were told that the cash could not be spared to pay for expensive drugs to prolong life, then you read about what I assume is health tourism, you would be far less likely to take an altruistic view. You would see this as blatantly unfair.
You feel that immigrants should never be turned away -so you would accept hundreds of thousands on an annual basis, and of course admit ever more as they see you as a soft target. I submit that this is a very irresponsible attitude. Easily trotted out, however.

Triggaaar · Apr 21, 2015

Leekbrookgull said:
Maybe i am reading this situation wrongly,but until the'West' removed Gaddaffi Libya althrough ruled by a dictator was not in a state of cival war and chaos where as usual the innocent pay the biggest price

You're saying that members of the public weren't being killed in Libya before Gaddafi was removed?

BadFish · Apr 21, 2015

Hastings gull said:
Of course this is how you would react, and presumably I would too, I imagine. But that still does not give them the right to turn up in Europe and say house, feed, educate me etc.

I think that you are being disingenuous. This suggests that the majority of immigrants are in the UK on the scrounge. I just don't think the numbers bear this out.

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/immigration_and_benefits-28846

There you go 6% of non Uk nationals are claiming benefits (compared with 15% of Uk nationals)

Hastings gull · Apr 21, 2015

BadFish said:
I think that once again you are being disingenuous again. This suggests that the majority of immigrants are in the UK on the scrounge. I just don't think the numbers bear this out.

I am not suggesting that they are scroungers as such, just that they have decided to move country, have nothing at all on them and thus need to be fed, educated etc etc. I am simply stating the obvious. whilst I do appreciate that you do a lot for immigrants, I can't help feeling you are rather too sensitive.

BadFish · Apr 21, 2015

Hastings gull said:
I am not suggesting that they are scroungers as such, just that they have decided to move country, have nothing at all on them and thus need to be fed, educated etc etc. I am simply stating the obvious. whilst I do appreciate that you do a lot for immigrants, I can't help feeling you are rather too sensitive.

I am not sensitive at all I just think that you are misrepresenting people. Why is it obvious that immigrants would have nothing on them and need to be fed and educated? Are you talking about Asylum Seekers here? I would imagine that the vast majority of immigrants arrive in their new country with most of their worldly possession in tow, well fed from the plane journey and with all of their previous education in tact. I certainly did.

JCL666 · Apr 21, 2015

Hastings gull said:
Of course this is how you would react, and presumably I would too, I imagine. But that still does not give them the right to turn up in Europe and say house, feed, educate me etc. It is a very difficult situation. And yes they are human beings, deservous of dignity etc. During the 7 leader debate, she in Scotland whom you would not wish to meet on a dark night, rounded on Farage, who claimed that 6000 Aids sufferers being treated on the NHS were foreigners, saying that they were human beings and that he should be ashamed of himself. All well and good. But that is not necessarily how others see it. Assuming that the figure of 6000 is correct - and it was not challenged - that would have implications for the funding of treatment for other folk, who had paid national insurance contributions, possibly for decades. If your loved one received less than perfect treatment, or you were told that the cash could not be spared to pay for expensive drugs to prolong life, then you read about what I assume is health tourism, you would be far less likely to take an altruistic view. You would see this as blatantly unfair.
You feel that immigrants should never be turned away -so you would accept hundreds of thousands on an annual basis, and of course admit ever more as they see you as a soft target. I submit that this is a very irresponsible attitude. Easily trotted out, however.

It doesn't matter who has paid what for however many years. For example: I pay a lot of tax and NI. Much more (to date) than I or my family have "taken out"
So I am paying for "other folk" already, that is hard to reconcile at times, but I accept it because I believe in altruism and empathy, and because I believe that should I need help, "other folk" will help me.

This "soft target" label is a bit lame. It's not that we are seen as a soft target, that's just the medias way of manipulating what is going on. We are seen as a great place to live, that we care for those that need help, and that if you work hard you can achieve.

"Easily trotted out". No not at all. It is far easier to say "They should all **** off back to their own country".

Deleted member 22389 · Apr 21, 2015

Hastings gull said:
Of course this is how you would react, and presumably I would too, I imagine. But that still does not give them the right to turn up in Europe and say house, feed, educate me etc. It is a very difficult situation. And yes they are human beings, deservous of dignity etc. During the 7 leader debate, she in Scotland whom you would not wish to meet on a dark night, rounded on Farage, who claimed that 6000 Aids sufferers being treated on the NHS were foreigners, saying that they were human beings and that he should be ashamed of himself. All well and good. But that is not necessarily how others see it. Assuming that the figure of 6000 is correct - and it was not challenged - that would have implications for the funding of treatment for other folk, who had paid national insurance contributions, possibly for decades. If your loved one received less than perfect treatment, or you were told that the cash could not be spared to pay for expensive drugs to prolong life, then you read about what I assume is health tourism, you would be far less likely to take an altruistic view. You would see this as blatantly unfair.
You feel that immigrants should never be turned away -so you would accept hundreds of thousands on an annual basis, and of course admit ever more as they see you as a soft target. I submit that this is a very irresponsible attitude. Easily trotted out, however.

Boats need to be stopped at source from starting the journey, how they do that I just don't know if no country in the EU is prepared to police it. I think the EU will just leave things as they currently are, but put the emphasis on making sure that anybody who is rescued has settlement plans, so every country in the EU take a fair share of people. Even if settlement plans are put in place, it won't take in to consideration the state of the economy in Southern Europe.

alfredmizen · Apr 21, 2015

JCL666 said:
It doesn't matter who has paid what for however many years. For example: I pay a lot of tax and NI. Much more (to date) than I or my family have "taken out"
So I am paying for "other folk" already, that is hard to reconcile at times, but I accept it because I believe in altruism and empathy, and because I believe that should I need help, "other folk" will help me.

This "soft target" label is a bit lame. It's not that we are seen as a soft target, that's just the medias way of manipulating what is going on. We are seen as a great place to live, that we care for those that need help, and that if you work hard you can achieve.

"Easily trotted out". No not at all. It is far easier to say "They should all **** off back to their own country".

Id bet my bottom dollar that neither you or anyone you care about has ever been denied NHS treatment due to lack of funds,or social housing, your altruistic outlook would disappear pretty quickly were that the case.

JCL666 · Apr 21, 2015

alfredmizen said:
Id bet my bottom dollar that neither you or anyone you care about has ever been denied NHS treatment due to lack of funds,or social housing, your altruistic outlook would disappear pretty quickly were that the case.

you'd lose your dollar

alfredmizen · Apr 21, 2015

JCL666 said:
you'd lose your dollar

then youre an even bigger fool than i thought , or lying.

JCL666 · Apr 21, 2015

alfredmizen said:
then youre an even bigger fool than i thought , or lying.

yeah whatever.

alfredmizen · Apr 21, 2015

JCL666 said:
yeah whatever.

good point, well made, now the cynic in me thinks that youve gone for this retort due to the lack of a credible reply.

JCL666 · Apr 21, 2015

alfredmizen said:
good point, well made, now the cynic in me thinks that youve gone for this retort due to the lack of a credible reply.

You a cynic? NEVER....

Thing is, I'm not going to disclose what happened to a family member on a public forum in order to make a point to someone I don't know.

Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

Mediterranean migrant deaths and CMD.

New member

Well-known member

Huge Member

Well-known member

Huge Member

Well-known member

Huge Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Huge Member

Well-known member

Huge Member

absurdism

Deleted member 22389

Guest

Banned

absurdism

Banned

absurdism

Banned

absurdism

Share this page