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Religions of peace? A thread for sober discussion.



jimhigham

Je Suis Rhino
Apr 25, 2009
7,739
Woking
Breaking news this evening suggests that the Muslim pilot held hostage by ISIS has been burned alive. A separate thread on this forum has already taken wings and is running to several pages. However, I'm being presumptuous enough to give this a thread of its own because I'd like to look a little wider at the phrase "a religion of peace".

Every time such a news story breaks the debate is almost immediately polarised between those that would condemn an entire faith and those that suggest that the terrorists in no way represent their claimed faith. There is very seldom any nuance in the discussion. Shall we have a go at discussing this well worn phrase?

I'll declare my own hand first. I'm athiest and would personally prefer this to be a secular country. However, I'm also a realist and know full well that religion will almost certainly always be with us. Accepting this, I see mankind's greatest challenge after climate change as being the quest for people of all faiths and none to reach an accommodation whereby we all rub along peaceably.

Turning to my wider theme...

There isn't one of the major faiths that proudly proclaims itself to be a "religion of war". They all profess to be gentle and loving in nature. The spotlight is turned fiercely upon Islam right now but I would like to look at Christianity to illustrate a point, largely because it is the fauth that I was nominally brought up in.

The Bible contains the texts "Love thy neighbour as yourself" (Mark 12:31 apparently) and "Turn the other cheek" (Luke 6:29). These two are often cited as evidence of the virtuous nature of that faith. However, the same book also contains the well known text "An eye for an eye" (Exodus 21:24). In simple terms the last verse contradicts the others. The Koran and Torah contain a similarly bipolar split of peaceful and vengeful text.

While it is unpalatable for believers to consider, it is perfectly possible for a person reading the Bible to take a literal view of the text and choose a violent path. While this is a simplistic examination there are many sections within the Bible that appear to condone divinely sanctioned violence. The same can be said of both the other major faiths.

When people of faith profess theirs to be a “religion of peace” it is an entirely natural impulse to disassociate themselves from those that corrupt their own understanding of what they believe to be a peaceful faith. However, my concern is that this distancing renders them enablers, as they effectively wash their hands of a problem that is being committed in the name of a holy book that they purport to subscribe to.

Essentially, I view the term as “religion of peace” to be an elephant in the room. For society to progress I believe that all the major faiths need to emerge from their denial and acknowledge that they have some grisly skeletons in their cupboard. I would contend that this needs to happen in order to underline how the faiths can “evolve”, thereby explaining why they exist along the peaceful paths we would wish to see. Simply insisting that all is well fosters the impression that the holy books are indeed infallible and therefore that a literal translation remains a reasonable option.

So that’s my take. Anybody else want a go?
 




greyseagull

New member
Jul 1, 2012
2,023
West Worthing
My take on it is Stone Cold 3:16 says I just kicked your ass.

But, as I'm just going to bed, I will respond properly in the morning.

With a stunner.

Just kidding.
 






Worthingite

Sexy Pete... :D
Sep 16, 2011
4,959
Worthing
Cue [MENTION=7]Mustafa[/MENTION] [MENTION=11956]bushy[/MENTION] @sir_albion. Let's go.....
 






cjd

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2006
6,105
La Rochelle
The only thing that has tempered the brutality that evolved down the centuries from the bible is the education the western world has built on during this and the last century. The more educated we are, the more we question the 'nonsense' of religion.

The problem with Islam, is the lack of education. With IS and their various and murderous affilliated groups (Al Quaeda, Boko Haram, etc etc etc) their is little (almost certainly none) chance of these savages joining the civilised world. Education is out for them.....and without it, their violence will never decrease.
 


Raleigh Chopper

New member
Sep 1, 2011
12,054
Plymouth
You seem to know a lot about the contents of the bible for an atheist.
Atheists interest me.
Do you never say oh my god.
If you are in a serious situation ( trouble or health for example) have you ever had a quick prayer even subconsciously for a bit of help.
If something very bad has happened to you, have you looked up with a clenched fist and called God a *******.
At half time in the FA Cup Final, did you not go up your back garden and sink to your knees and pray to the almighty that if Brighton win I promise I will go to church every Sunday, give money to charity and that you will be nice to everyone.
Then Smith missed a sitter and I have questioned the meaning of religion ever since.
 




essbee

New member
Jan 5, 2005
3,656
This thread should be renamed as: 'if you think you could bore the Archbishop of Canterbury, read on'.
 




jimhigham

Je Suis Rhino
Apr 25, 2009
7,739
Woking
You seem to know a lot about the contents of the bible for an atheist.
Atheists interest me.
Do you never say oh my god.
If you are in a serious situation ( trouble or health for example) have you ever had a quick prayer even subconsciously for a bit of help.
If something very bad has happened to you, have you looked up with a clenched fist and called God a *******.
At half time in the FA Cup Final, did you not go up your back garden and sink to your knees and pray to the almighty that if Brighton win I promise I will go to church every Sunday, give money to charity and that you will be nice to everyone.
Then Smith missed a sitter and I have questioned the meaning of religion ever since.

I didn't simply wake up an atheist one day. I did a bit of reading over a lot of years before getting there.

And honestly? I've never offered up a prayer for anything after the age of about eight.
 




pastafarian

Well-known member
Sep 4, 2011
11,902
Sussex
You seem to know a lot about the contents of the bible for an atheist.
Atheists interest me.

Bit of an odd statement is it not?

why wouldnt an atheist have knowledge of biblical text or other religious text for that matter? you dont just wake up one morning and say "sweet jesus......there are no Gods"
 




lawros left foot

Glory hunting since 1969
Jun 11, 2011
13,726
Worthing
You seem to know a lot about the contents of the bible for an atheist.
Atheists interest me.
Do you never say oh my god.
If you are in a serious situation ( trouble or health for example) have you ever had a quick prayer even subconsciously for a bit of help.
If something very bad has happened to you, have you looked up with a clenched fist and called God a *******.
At half time in the FA Cup Final, did you not go up your back garden and sink to your knees and pray to the almighty that if Brighton win I promise I will go to church every Sunday, give money to charity and that you will be nice to everyone.
Then Smith missed a sitter and I have questioned the meaning of religion ever since.

I am an atheist.
I dont believe in your God, whichever version it is, or anyone elses. I have not prayed, for any reason since childhood, and , after having had 38 cardiac arrests I've had more cause to than many. I would never question anybodies believes, it is their own buisness,not mine. I would not try to convert them to my non belief, and i wouldn't expect them to try to convert me to theirs. Having said all that, I am as serious an atheist as it is possible to be, and I am really quite glad that I need no belief in an all powerful being to make my humble existence more palatable
 




Raleigh Chopper

New member
Sep 1, 2011
12,054
Plymouth
I didn't simply wake up an atheist one day. I did a bit of reading over a lot of years before getting there.

And honestly? I've never offered up a prayer for anything after the age of about eight.

Stuff that goes on in the name of religion is enough to make the pope atheist.
I have always found religion bewildering.
 




beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,312
The Bible contains the texts "Love thy neighbour as yourself" (Mark 12:31 apparently) and "Turn the other cheek" (Luke 6:29). These two are often cited as evidence of the virtuous nature of that faith. However, the same book also contains the well known text "An eye for an eye" (Exodus 21:24). In simple terms the last verse contradicts the others. The Koran and Torah contain a similarly bipolar split of peaceful and vengeful text.

you probably want to consider that its not the same book, the old and new testement are essentially two very different text with different authors and audiences. its like having a sequel written a decade later by a different person with different view. which is a shame really because jettisoning all that fire and brimstone crap, theres much to commend part II.
 


lawros left foot

Glory hunting since 1969
Jun 11, 2011
13,726
Worthing
Getting back to the thread question, Islam is about 1500 years old ,as a religion, and is going through an horrendous time at the moment, where an awful lot of the faith are being massacred by their co-religionists.
Christianity went through a similar upheaval during the reformation, when Christianity was about the same age (1500years old). I wonder if this is some kind of re-alignment that every religion has to go through to mature
 




clungemeister

New member
Jan 11, 2015
152
The only thing that has tempered the brutality that evolved down the centuries from the bible is the education the western world has built on during this and the last century. The more educated we are, the more we question the 'nonsense' of religion.

The problem with Islam, is the lack of education. With IS and their various and murderous affilliated groups (Al Quaeda, Boko Haram, etc etc etc) their is little (almost certainly none) chance of these savages joining the civilised world. Education is out for them.....and without it, their violence will never decrease.

:thumbsup:
 


ThePompousPaladin

New member
Apr 7, 2013
1,025
Religions don't have much to do with God. They're just human organisations, and like all organisations, they're corrupt and the scum rises to the top. That said, they make the rules for those that worship...

If there were ever any religions of peace, they'd have been eaten by one of the big monotheistic religions by now.
The tribe that worshiped the religion of peace would have been destroyed by a tribe that worshiped the religion of war. Hence the big two that are left (in our part of the world) have historically been warlike. They got there because they won.

Paladins were some of the first northern european converts to christianity, frankish knights, they went and butchered the heathen saxons, who were yet to convert.

The only exception i can think of to this is perhaps Tibetan Buddhism, and look what happened to the Dalai Lama.

As a side note, pluralistic religions in history were sometimes not that bothered. When the Romans conquered someone, they'd either add their gods to the pantheon or absorb their gods into similar deities. They just wanted the tax and glory.
 


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