Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 70,374
A bit like Amazon and Starbucks you mean?
Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊
Greece crisis: Europe on edge over snap election
- Thread starter TomandJerry
- Start date
A bit like Amazon and Starbucks you mean?
sir albion
New member
You try telling that to the millions of people in poverty over there while the middle class are out demonstrating to stay in the EU because they've done well in it.
Greece would be better out and I hope they depart
cunning fergus
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,747
Its all very well attacking the global banks and the capitalists for causing this crisis, however how about lumping in the f*ckwit politicians who have just as greedily agreed to launch the "eurozone" financial construct which is ultimately grinding Greece into the dust.
Greedy global corprate monetarists and EU (including most UK) politicians are just different cheeks of the same arse.
Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 70,374
Think we're both *cough* 'singing from the same songsheet here in that you, like me, are not attacking the poor bastid Greek citizen who has done nothing wrong and who is is being absolutely CRUCIFIED by these c*nts. Makes our pitiful UK 'Anti-Austerity' marchers look like the
they are. Walk a mile in a Greek citizens shoes then come back and tell us about austerity.Hampster Gull
New member
- Dec 22, 2010
- 13,462
Both will declare victory on the day
Perhaps, but ultimately it is likely to fail, both will finally have nothing to gain, either financially or politically.
cunning fergus
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,747
Think we're both *cough* 'singing from the same songsheet here in that you, like me, are not attacking the poor bastid Greek citizen who has done nothing wrong and who is is being absolutely CRUCIFIED by these c*nts. Makes our pitiful UK 'Anti-Austerity' marchers look like the
Kind of, and I wouldn't say that none of the individual Greeks are blameless either. Plenty are to blame and have played a part in the crisis by not paying tax or more typically by taking advantage of the benefits of the euro. These "benefits" were available to Greece as they were to people in other poor European countries as a direct consequence of the euro and how it was managed.
There is the root cause, a currency union with no credible economic or political framework which was created through a marriage of the interests of European politicians and global capitalists.
Just like the problems in the UK's credit crunch plenty of people borrowed more than they could afford, and whilst this money was lent out recklessly by the banks, it was the that politicians helped incubate this environment. The victims then are like many of the innocent Greeks...........those who didn't spend but saved money.
No one cares for them.
TomandJerry
Well-known member
- Oct 1, 2013
- 11,598
- Thread starter
- #368
So to quickly recap....*Eurozone*finance ministers have decided there’s no point talking late into the night about Greece, as an agreement is still some distance away.
Tonight’s meeting in Brussels*quickly showed that there are still fundamental differences between Athens and its creditors over its bailout reform programme, with less than a week until it expires.
A meeting that was meant to go into the night and*actually deliver a deal*actually ended after barely an hour, once ministers had been briefed.
The Eurogroup swiftly concluded that it isn’t in any position to draw up the staff-level agreement needed to unlock aid for Greece.
Tonight’s meeting in Brussels*quickly showed that there are still fundamental differences between Athens and its creditors over its bailout reform programme, with less than a week until it expires.
A meeting that was meant to go into the night and*actually deliver a deal*actually ended after barely an hour, once ministers had been briefed.
The Eurogroup swiftly concluded that it isn’t in any position to draw up the staff-level agreement needed to unlock aid for Greece.
TomandJerry
Well-known member
- Oct 1, 2013
- 11,598
- Thread starter
- #369
FT: Creditors issue bailout ultimatum to Greece
The crunch moment may just have arrived.
According to the Financial Times, creditors have given Alexis Tsipras until 11am Brussels time to produce a ‘workable’ proposal. That’s in just under 10 minutes time!
If he doesn’t give some ground, Athens could then get a ‘take it or leave it’ offer.....
"The European Central Bank has just approved a request for more emergency liquidity for the Greek banking sector, according to the newswires.
No word on how large the request is, but Greek officials are briefing that the ELA funding could be reviewed again tomorrow.
The ECB has already provided over €84bn of ELA support, to allow Greek banks to handle the deposit flight while bailout negotiations continue."
The crunch moment may just have arrived.
According to the Financial Times, creditors have given Alexis Tsipras until 11am Brussels time to produce a ‘workable’ proposal. That’s in just under 10 minutes time!
If he doesn’t give some ground, Athens could then get a ‘take it or leave it’ offer.....
"The European Central Bank has just approved a request for more emergency liquidity for the Greek banking sector, according to the newswires.
No word on how large the request is, but Greek officials are briefing that the ELA funding could be reviewed again tomorrow.
The ECB has already provided over €84bn of ELA support, to allow Greek banks to handle the deposit flight while bailout negotiations continue."
Last edited:
TomandJerry
Well-known member
- Oct 1, 2013
- 11,598
- Thread starter
- #370
LEAKED: The creditors' new Greek proposal
At first glance, it looks pretty similar to the infamous red-ink counter-proposal that the IMF drew up earlier this week. But there are some concessions on pensions."
This leaked proposal shows that creditors have given some ground on the VAT issue -- although they still want to raise a full 1% of GDP through various reforms.
They have accepted that Greece could maintain a 6% low rate for pharmaceuticals, books, and the theatre. In previous plans, this rate would have been abolished.
But, they are still insisting that the lower VAT rate on Greece’s islands is abolished. Alexis Tsipras’s junior coalition partner, ANEL, has already refused to accept such a move.
Creditors also want restaurants and hotels to face the full 23% VAT rate -- they have already warned that this would cost thousands of jobs.
This comes after the:
"No deal.
It’s now clear that there isn’t an agreement between the two sides, despite this morning’s ultimatum."
Grexit looking more likely then ever now
At first glance, it looks pretty similar to the infamous red-ink counter-proposal that the IMF drew up earlier this week. But there are some concessions on pensions."
This leaked proposal shows that creditors have given some ground on the VAT issue -- although they still want to raise a full 1% of GDP through various reforms.
They have accepted that Greece could maintain a 6% low rate for pharmaceuticals, books, and the theatre. In previous plans, this rate would have been abolished.
But, they are still insisting that the lower VAT rate on Greece’s islands is abolished. Alexis Tsipras’s junior coalition partner, ANEL, has already refused to accept such a move.
Creditors also want restaurants and hotels to face the full 23% VAT rate -- they have already warned that this would cost thousands of jobs.
This comes after the:
"No deal.
It’s now clear that there isn’t an agreement between the two sides, despite this morning’s ultimatum."
Grexit looking more likely then ever now
The Greek citizens have chosen their politicians, they've chosen to keep a low retirement age for decades, they've chosen to 'work' for the government and to not pay much tax, and their economy is shit as a result. I'm not blaming any Greek citizen for all of it, and I'm not blaming every Greek citizen for some of it, but you're saying that the citizens have done nothing wrong at all? I disagree. You reap what you sow.
cunning fergus
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,747
Entirely fair point, and the democratic angle here is one that is constantly overlooked by the media and other commentators in relation to the crisis.
On C4 last night Paul Mason revealed how following a meeting in Greece between the Parliametary Parties and "EU representatives" a pro EU party that had got 6% of the vote in the last election was asked if they wanted to form a pro EU Government.
That revelation (if true) should be headline news everywhere.
And to think the EU has the nerve to lecture Russia about how its interfering in Ukraine.
Not really.
Buzzer
Languidly Clinical
- Oct 1, 2006
- 26,121
Another right-of-centre economist who argues that debt relief is the only way to save Greece. This article is spot on IMO, it mentions the dubious moral high ground that Germany is asserting, the danger of the Trioika message "the beatings will continue until morale improves" and the human tragedy in all this. I think this article is even better than the one from the Princeton economist although they both argue the same points and both mention the huge debt relief given to ailing Germany after WWII.
http://coppolacomment.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/debt-and-morality-in-greek-crisis.html
It's interesting just how many right-wing economists are now taking this line. Coppola is particularly well-respected, her FT column carries a lot of weight in the finance world. Alas, I think the Germans are now so embedded with their position; they've done such a great job delivering their message to German voters that any concessions would be seen as a humiliating climbdown.
http://coppolacomment.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/debt-and-morality-in-greek-crisis.html
It's interesting just how many right-wing economists are now taking this line. Coppola is particularly well-respected, her FT column carries a lot of weight in the finance world. Alas, I think the Germans are now so embedded with their position; they've done such a great job delivering their message to German voters that any concessions would be seen as a humiliating climbdown.
Buzzer
Languidly Clinical
- Oct 1, 2006
- 26,121
*ahem*
And the EU has form having already previously engineered changes in government in both Greece and Italy to ones more pro-EU. Yet time and time again, electors across Europe vote in their millions for anti-EU parties - what don't the EU get about it ?
Last edited:
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,332
debt relief isn't on the agenda because it wasn't/isn't for Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy. the risk is you bow to pressure for Greece and they all pile in behind. we cant look at the Greece situation in isolation. also, its not just Germany, but Finland, Dutch and others who are saying the debt must be paid. then there's the IMF.
debt relief might be an argument down the road say after 10-15 years when the captial has at least been repaid and some restructuring of debt and finances has taken place. what we have here is a debtor who has made little attempt to actually repay debt, just rolling over to the next bailout, insisting they maintain spending as they did before. thats why there's a stalemate, they want to raise taxes to balance the books, the creditors not unreasonably give the track record, want to see cost cutting. dont entirely trust those taxes will be raised.
Buzzer
Languidly Clinical
- Oct 1, 2006
- 26,121
This Greece situation is so much worse and for so many more reasons. There was never a danger of Portugal, Italy or Ireland letting Putin into their country. None have seen their economies contract at such an alarming rate, neither has any country the level of debt that Greece has with such an inability to manage it without help, no-one else was allowed to join the Euro knowingly fraudulently, neither was anyone forced to buy mountains of guns from France and Germany. And Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Spain aren't indebted to France and Germany at anywhere near Greece's level.
I believe that you can make this a once-only offer to Greece because of the perilous state of the country's infrastructure and the very real risk to NATO/European stability if Greece defaults. I've no problems with keeping the IMF debt but Greece is in a very peculiar situation whereby a third of its debt is held by Germany and France. If just they offered debt relief (and they are the 5th and 10th richest countries in the world respectively) then this alone could change the game overnight. And because it is individual countries offering this relief then there's no legal obligation nor moral pressure for France or Germany to repeat this at any time in the future with any other country.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,332
i do not believe they owe it directly, but under various EU/ECB/Euro mechanisms. it is not in their gift to write it off, even if they wanted to.
Is there an issue in the world that - according to you - isn't the fault of the European Union?