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Greece crisis: Europe on edge over snap election



Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
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The Fatherland
beorhthelm said:
last night a Yes rally was apparently larger than the previous night No rally. i also read that the Greeks both submitted request for a new bailout of 29Bn euro and (seperately) offered to suspend the referendum if the terms of the current bailout can be deferred a few weeks. so they are using the vote as a bargaining position, while also running off to seek new loans. .
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It's an interesting turn. I think the referendum, which let's face is a straight in or out of the euro decision now, will end the saga decisively. And it's also the most sensible option I feel. If the people of Greece want to stay then they will, if not they don't they won't. Whatever, the population will have decided which is good I think.
 




larus

larus

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
6,580
In the land of hope and expectation....
Herr Tubthumper said:
It's an interesting turn. I think the referendum, which let's face is a straight in or out of the euro decision now, will end the saga decisively. And it's also the most sensible option I feel. If the people of Greece want to stay then they will, if not they don't they won't. Whatever, the population will have decided which is good I think.
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But if they get it 'wrong; will the EU ask them to have another referendum until they get the 'right' answer. There is no democracy within the EU. It's a complete shower of sh*t. It's original purpose has been lst, but IMO, it is viewed as one step towards ever more powerful but remote governments, with less accountability to the average person.

The EU are always scared of referendum. They think that a small number of people should be able to decide the future of hundreds of millions of people across the continent. I despise what the EU has become.
 


T

TomandJerry

Well-known member
Oct 1, 2013
11,554
Meanwhile there appears to be a problem with Sunday’s referendum: a mistranslation in one of the debt documents being voted on. Bloomberg reports:

There are three scenarios, and it concludes that under the first two there are “no sustainability issues” when the country’s financing needs are taken into account. The translation, though, provided by the Foreign Ministry and sent to reporters on Monday, missed out the word “no.”
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
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The Fatherland
larus said:
But if they get it 'wrong; will the EU ask them to have another referendum until they get the 'right' answer. There is no democracy within the EU. It's a complete shower of sh*t. It's original purpose has been lst, but IMO, it is viewed as one step towards ever more powerful but remote governments, with less accountability to the average person.

The EU are always scared of referendum. They think that a small number of people should be able to decide the future of hundreds of millions of people across the continent. I despise what the EU has become.
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The EU has just announced an end to mobile phone rip-off roaming charges next year. It's not all bad you know :smile:
 


M

Mellor 3 Ward 4

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2004
9,828
saaf of the water
Just got off the phone with one of my Greek friends.

He's really 'upset and disappointed' that Tsispras seems to be caving in.

When I said to him that it was either negotiate a deal, sign and stay in the €, he disagreed, saying he thought they could say NO on Sunday in the referendum, and still stay in the € - saying that the EU wouldn't let Greece leave as the whole EU project would collapse. He actually thinks saying NO would put Greece in a stronger negotiating position.

I guess that Tsispras thought the same, but he seems to be backtracking.
 




Buzzer

Buzzer

Languidly Clinical
Oct 1, 2006
26,121
Herr Tubthumper said:
It's an interesting turn. I think the referendum, which let's face is a straight in or out of the euro decision now, will end the saga decisively. And it's also the most sensible option I feel. If the people of Greece want to stay then they will, if not they don't they won't. Whatever, the population will have decided which is good I think.
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Except that the EU have forced this into a referendum on the Euro rather than letting the Greek government let their people decide on debt negotiations. They forced the Greek government to apply capital controls, they worked against Tsipras's government all the while they were negotiating and now have a gun to the Greek's heads and are telling them that they will only deal further if there is a YES vote. That isn't democracy it's blackmail.
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,332
Mellor 3 Ward 4 said:
... he thought they could say NO on Sunday in the referendum, and still stay in the € - saying that the EU wouldn't let Greece leave as the whole EU project would collapse. He actually thinks saying NO would put Greece in a stronger negotiating position.

I guess that Tsispras thought the same, but he seems to be backtracking.
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This has been the problem all along, with Syriza getting elected on this premise. it fails to recognise the rest of Europe disagrees. while they have tried to avoid allowing an exit, as its certainly difficult to let Greece go, in the end its a possibility and one that is probably more desirable than trying to convince the Germans, Dutch and few others to bank roll the southern states.
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

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Jul 21, 2003
35,332
Buzzer said:
Except that the EU have forced this into a referendum on the Euro rather than letting the Greek government let their people decide on debt negotiations. They forced the Greek government to apply capital controls, they worked against Tsipras's government all the while they were negotiating and now have a gun to the Greek's heads and are telling them that they will only deal further if there is a YES vote. That isn't democracy it's blackmail.
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it was the Greeks that walked on negotiations last week and declared a referendum. they had 4 days of negotiation left, they folded. the subtext to this is that slowly they realise that they cant get the deal they want, and know the current deal wont pass their partners in government.
 




M

Mellor 3 Ward 4

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2004
9,828
saaf of the water
Buzzer said:
Except that the EU have forced this into a referendum on the Euro rather than letting the Greek government let their people decide on debt negotiations. They forced the Greek government to apply capital controls, they worked against Tsipras's government all the while they were negotiating and now have a gun to the Greek's heads and are telling them that they will only deal further if there is a YES vote. That isn't democracy it's blackmail.
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Agree that the EU have turned this into an IN/OUT referendum, and with your point about blackmail, but it wasn't the EU that called the referendum in the first place. That came, completely out of the blue, from Tsispras, on Friday night.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
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Buzzer said:
Except that the EU have forced this into a referendum on the Euro rather than letting the Greek government let their people decide on debt negotiations. They forced the Greek government to apply capital controls, they worked against Tsipras's government all the while they were negotiating and now have a gun to the Greek's heads and are telling them that they will only deal further if there is a YES vote. That isn't democracy it's blackmail.
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No one put a gun to the Greek's heads to join the EU. No one put a gun to the Greek's heads to join the euro. No one put a gun to the Greek's heads to spend uncontrollably. Maybe someone should have put a gun to the Greek's heads over fiscal attitudes though. I have sympathy with their position, but a lot of it is their own doing. They are accountable for their actions no matter how much this is dressed up as EU bullying. I do believe that ultimately a mutually agreeable situation will eventually come out though.

As an aside, I do find it interesting how some on this thread (not necessarily you) are quick to blame Labour for supposedly profligate spending and taxing but all to quick to jump to Greece's defence when they have shown to be the absolute masters.
 






Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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M

Mellor 3 Ward 4

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2004
9,828
saaf of the water
Herr Tubthumper said:
No one put a gun to the Greek's heads to join the EU. No one put a gun to the Greek's heads to join the euro. No one put a gun to the Greek's heads to spend uncontrollably. Maybe someone should have put a gun to the Greek's heads over fiscal attitudes though. I have sympathy with their position, but a lot of it is their own doing. They are accountable for their actions no matter how much this is dressed up as EU bullying. I do believe that ultimately a mutually agreeable situation will eventually come out though.

As an aside, I do find it interesting how some on this thread (not necessarily you) are quick to blame Labour for supposedly profligate spending and taxing but all to quick to jump to Greece's defence when they have shown to be the absolute masters.
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There's no doubt they got themselves into this mess - massively bloated public sector, retiring at 52 on unsustainable pensions for some 'strenuous' jobs -(hairdressing is included in that list if you're interested) and the books were clearly cooked to get into the Euro - BUT Germany and France lent them cheap money on the proviso that it was spent on military equipment purchased from - Germany and France. Money they simply can't pay back.
 


Simster

Simster

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Jul 7, 2003
54,238
Surrey
Herr Tubthumper said:
No one put a gun to the Greek's heads to join the EU. No one put a gun to the Greek's heads to join the euro. No one put a gun to the Greek's heads to spend uncontrollably. Maybe someone should have put a gun to the Greek's heads over fiscal attitudes though. I have sympathy with their position, but a lot of it is their own doing.
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Equally culpable, IMO. It's the old adage that if you owe £1,000 to the bank, it is a problem for you, but if you owe £1,000,000 to the bank, it is a problem for THEM.

This is the position the Germans find themselves in. They kept lending and lending (irresponsibly) while the Greeks made no tax reforms. But who cares while they're using that money to buy German arms, right?

The solution HAS to be that the Greeks take their medicine, and make some paletable reforms. But equally, the German, French and Dutch lenders learn their lesson and write off some of that debt.
 




Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Simster said:
Equally culpable, IMO. It's the old adage that if you owe £1,000 to the bank, it is a problem for you, but if you owe £1,000,000 to the bank, it is a problem for THEM.

This is the position the Germans find themselves in. They kept lending and lending (irresponsibly) while the Greeks made no tax reforms. But who cares while they're using that money to buy German arms, right?

The solution HAS to be that the Greeks take their medicine, and make some paletable reforms. But equally, the German, French and Dutch lenders learn their lesson and write off some of that debt.
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Three different bodies have lent money. It isn't the Germans making decisions and lending on their own. They have merely lent the most as they are the wealthiest. But I see your point.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
59,724
The Fatherland
Simster said:
Equally culpable, IMO. It's the old adage that if you owe £1,000 to the bank, it is a problem for you, but if you owe £1,000,000 to the bank, it is a problem for THEM.

This is the position the Germans find themselves in. They kept lending and lending (irresponsibly) while the Greeks made no tax reforms. But who cares while they're using that money to buy German arms, right?

The solution HAS to be that the Greeks take their medicine, and make some paletable reforms. But equally, the German, French and Dutch lenders learn their lesson and write off some of that debt.
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I also think this is a game of brinksmanship on BOTH sides. I firmly believe it will have a mutually agreeable outcome though. What this will be I have no idea.
 


T

TomandJerry

Well-known member
Oct 1, 2013
11,554
BREAKING: Council of Europe: Conditions of Greek referendum fall short of international standards.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
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TomandJerry said:
BREAKING: Council of Europe: Conditions of Greek referendum fall short of international standards.
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Jesus. The Greeks really are a bunch of amateurs.
 




Lower West Stander

Lower West Stander

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Mar 25, 2012
4,753
Back in Sussex
beorhthelm said:
This has been the problem all along, with Syriza getting elected on this premise. it fails to recognise the rest of Europe disagrees. while they have tried to avoid allowing an exit, as its certainly difficult to let Greece go, in the end its a possibility and one that is probably more desirable than trying to convince the Germans, Dutch and few others to bank roll the southern states.
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I don't think so.

Its easy for Tsipras to go to the country and say "I tried as part of the last minute negotiations but Europe said no".

I think the current market rally is bullsh*t.
 


C

cunning fergus

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Jan 18, 2009
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