Three must go, not just Hyypia. Burke out, Barber out

spanish flair · Dec 13, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
It doesn't matter what structure you have behind the scenes, if the team isn't doing well, it will stick in the craw. If we'd gone the last few years with the manager in sole charge of all transfers, and a shambles in operating the stadium with little money available to the team, we'd all be screaming for a recruitment structure and better commercial operations to maximise profits for the team investment. Honestly we would.

I think you are right there we would. But does this not pose the question, if the structure is correct but failing, are the people operating it totally inadequate. We do have posters who constantly tell us it works at other clubs, so why is it not working here?

Horses Arse · Dec 13, 2014

ewe2 said:
We can blame,player recruitment and the coaching for our poor showing this season.We can blame the lack of funding, The club budgets are set by Tony Bloom and implemented by Barber. We all want bigger budgets for better players,and blame Bloom/Barber for not providing the money,unfairly in my opinion .I have seen many relegation struggles with The Albion over the years and when we go down ,its not the quality of the team,but the lack confidence and fight that is missing.We are at that point now !

It's not the funding necessarily and Barber is not the reason for the playing side shambles either.

The shambles on the pitch is something I can deal with; its just football to an extent. What I can't abide is seeing the club and fans disconnected - that is Barber's fault in my opinion. He has had a shocking affect on this club from a cultural perspective. He has ripped the heart and soul from this club in my opinion.

It also may be that his commercial impact may be more due to player sales rather than his ability but the accounts will no doubt clarify this along with any £ for £ improvement that he has delivered when compared with his salary.

Bwian · Dec 13, 2014

nwgull said:
About 10-20% of posts on NSC are made by people who engage their brains.

And you?

drew · Dec 13, 2014

Horses Arse said:
It's not the funding necessarily and Barber is not the reason for the playing side shambles either.

The shambles on the pitch is something I can deal with; its just football to an extent. What I can't abide is seeing the club and fans disconnected - that is Barber's fault in my opinion. He has had a shocking affect on this club from a cultural perspective. He has ripped the heart and soul from this club in my opinion.

It also may be that his commercial impact may be more due to player sales rather than his ability but the accounts will no doubt clarify this along with any £ for £ improvement that he has delivered when compared with his salary.

Out of interest, which successful clubs in the top two divisions have the heart and soul that you refer to? Did anyone really think that the club could retain the 'heart and soul' that was born out of a relatively short (but important) period of our history, once we had moved to a stadium like the Amex and whilst pursuing greater success on the pitch.

Bwian said:
A successful side is what generates income-not someone like Barber. If a team isn't winning no amount of corporate bullshit will raise income. We all know finances need to be kept in check because all managers love big money signings and they'll spend as much as they can and we all know that too. Corporate hospitality and sponsorship are only attractive when a team is successful which by itself brings in 'customers'. Barber was lucky, yes, lucky, joining BHAFC when he did. Successful team on the pitch. Brand new stadium with HUGE season ticket sales-above and beyond anybody at the club's expectations. And MOMENTUM. He had no part in that whatsoever but his image (and ego) were the benefactors of all of the efforts that were made before he joined.

Firstly, perhaps what should have been said is that PB maximises the income which comes from a successful team. Out of interest, bearing in mind costs were out of control before he arrived, do you think we would have remained successful with the previous incumbent? If costs weren't controlled then that would be less money for the playing budget.

Bold Seagull · Dec 13, 2014

spanish flair said:
I think you are right there we would. But does this not pose the question, if the structure is correct but failing, are the people operating it totally inadequate. We do have posters who constantly tell us it works at other clubs, so why is it not working here?

I would argue that for the previous 4 seasons, it has worked. We have a league title and 2 play off places to show for that, so to say the structure is failing because after 21 games (not even halfway) it's been pants this season probably is an unfair conclusion.

Norman Baker suck my lozenge · Dec 13, 2014

Barber has bit by bit ripped this club to shreds,Sammi is the nodding dog that the board were advised to get in on the cheap and it's now come round and bit them on the arse.
Burke has proved to be clueless at what he does and it is a well KNOWN fact that a lot of agents will not deal with his arrogance.For this club to move forward all three of these inadequates need to leave the club TODAY.

spanish flair · Dec 13, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
I would argue that for the previous 4 seasons, it has worked. We have a league title and 2 play off places to show for that, so to say the structure is failing because after 21 games (not even halfway) it's been pants this season probably is an unfair conclusion.

I think half of those years the recruitment had a heavy involvement of the manager. The third year that team was kept together with the exception of Noone, Bridcutt, El Abd and Barnes until January. This season has seen the strength of our recruitment team, after losing Ulloa, Buckley, Lopez, Orlandi and Pig on top of those already listed, have they really replaced them with the same quality ?

RexCathedra · Dec 13, 2014

it is a well KNOWN fact that a lot of agents will not deal with his arrogance.

How is that different from "It is a well KNOWN fact that a lot of agents will not deal with Barber's refusal to be rolled by them?"

I'm interested.

Bold Seagull · Dec 13, 2014

spanish flair said:
I think half of those years the recruitment had a heavy involvement of the manager. The third year that team was kept together with the exception of Noone, Bridcutt, El Abd and Barnes until January. This season has seen the strength of our recruitment team, after losing Ulloa, Buckley, Lopez, Orlandi and Pig, have they really replaced them with the same quality ?

No they haven't, that much is clear. But what that is down to isn't clear. We can all blame who we like, but none of us know the players Burke and his team are finding, what we can actually afford, and who the manager is then saying he actually wants. I just don't know.

One of the biggest problems has been our success without going up has led to a host of quality leaving as you've pointed out. No manager or system gets recruitment right the whole time. The fact we've had such quality does also highlight that recruitment has been successful, too successful at times.

I'd also say letting the likes of Murray leave also had a heavy involvement of the manager as did bringing in a replacement that cost twice as much, became the highest paid player at the club who wasn't half as good…

Norman Baker suck my lozenge · Dec 13, 2014

RexCathedra said:
How is that different from "It is a well KNOWN fact that a lot of agents will not deal with Barber's refusal to be rolled by them?"

I'm interested.

Agree with you there on the Graban situation but Burke Lost us the services of Ward and Clayton with his ****ing around and in the end the agents,along with their players walked away.
Get Barber and Burke out aswell as Sammi and good times will slowly return to this club.

spanish flair · Dec 13, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
No they haven't, that much is clear. But what that is down to isn't clear. We can all blame who we like, but none of us know the players Burke and his team are finding, what we can actually afford, and who the manager is then saying he actually wants. I just don't know.

One of the biggest problems has been our success without going up has led to a host of quality leaving as you've pointed out. No manager or system gets recruitment right the whole time. The fact we've had such quality does also highlight that recruitment has been successful, too successful at times.

I'd also say letting the likes of Murray leave also had a heavy involvement of the manager as did bringing in a replacement that cost twice as much, became the highest paid player at the club who wasn't half as good…

I think the letting go of Murray was a huge failing on Gus's part as was the signing of CMS, but as you say no recruitment is 100%. But if you look at the sales since Gus left, every one of the players that brought in the many millions to the club, were signed by Gus. Noone Barnes and Bridcutt he signed when at Withdean, Buckley was signed first pre season at the Amex. Ulloa was being chased by Gus for 18 months before signing him, all these were before Burke and his gang. Who has Burke signed that will bring in the equivalent of the £16 million of sales that Gus brought to the club?

Horses Arse · Dec 13, 2014

drew said:
Out of interest, which successful clubs in the top two divisions have the heart and soul that you refer to? Did anyone really think that the club could retain the 'heart and soul' that was born out of a relatively short (but important) period of our history, once we had moved to a stadium like the Amex and whilst pursuing greater success on the pitch.

Firstly, perhaps what should have been said is that PB maximises the income which comes from a successful team. Out of interest, bearing in mind costs were out of control before he arrived, do you think we would have remained successful with the previous incumbent? If costs weren't controlled then that would be less money for the playing budget.

There are too many to mention that have more heart and soul than us at present, but it is largely irrelevant what other clubs are doing. This is Brighton that we are talking about. It could and should have been so so different because of what we've been though. To judge us by comparison with every other club in the top two divisions is a very good demonstration of what is wrong - we've lost our identity in chasing the norm.

Guy Fawkes · Dec 13, 2014

nwgull said:
How ironic that the difference between a customer and a fan is that a fan will give loyal support through thick and thin.

It must be such a shame then for those using this as a reason to show that the club don't understand fans that this didn't come from Barber but from fans claiming he said it when he didn't.

Some people have an agenda and are willing believe without question anything they are told if it suits their belief.

All this rumour mongering and alike is doing the club no good what so ever

Bold Seagull · Dec 13, 2014

spanish flair said:
I think the letting go of Murray was a huge failing on Gus's part as was the signing of CMS, but as you say no recruitment is 100%. But if you look at the sales since Gus left, every one of the players that brought in the many millions to the club, were signed by Gus. Noone Barnes and Bridcutt he signed when at Withdean, Buckley was signed first pre season at the Amex. Ulloa was being chased by Gus for 18 months before signing him, all these were before Burke and his gang. Who has Burke signed that will bring in the equivalent of the £16 million of sales that Gus brought to the club?

But Gus left. Managers leave. Where does that leave you if your manager is in charge of everything, then leaves. You have to rely on the ability of the next man.

I can see why Chairman want consistency so that regardless of the coming and goings of managers, the process of identifying targets goes on undeterred.

What perhaps goes wrong with this system is when you have a manager come in who doesn't actually want to get more involved with Burke and his team. I'm not sure in our system that the manager can't have as much influence of transfers as he wants - that is down to them. The only thing he can't influence is the budget, but that would be the same whatever the system.

I don't think Gus left because he fell out with Barber or Burke. Gus left because he knew the club had to spend just that bit more if we were to go up (he was probably right) and when he was told no, he felt we were never going to show the ambition (money) he craved. I genuinely think it was as simple as that.

drew · Dec 13, 2014

Horses Arse said:
There are too many to mention that have more heart and soul than us at present, but it is largely irrelevant what other clubs are doing. This is Brighton that we are talking about. It could and should have been so so different because of what we've been though. To judge us by comparison with every other club in the top two divisions is a very good demonstration of what is wrong - we've lost our identity in chasing the norm.

Nice get out. Probably there are very few clubs that have retained the 'heart and soul' they had when playing in the lower leagues. It is the inevitable price of success. Why you think Brighton would be any different, despite what happened in the 90s, is beyond me. If you want heart and soul then maybe we should play in the lower leagues where there are considerably more fans than corporates. Personally, having seen us in the top flite before, I want to see it again.

Bwian · Dec 13, 2014

drew said:
Firstly, perhaps what should have been said is that PB maximises the income which comes from a successful team. Out of interest, bearing in mind costs were out of control before he arrived, do you think we would have remained successful with the previous incumbent? If costs weren't controlled then that would be less money for the playing budget.

We all know that Brown was a financial and PR disaster for the club and had he remained at the club we'd have even bigger money problems. He's not here-the problems remain. We all know costs had to be controlled on 2 fronts: expenditure exceeding income by the millions needed correcting, which is bad enough, but there was also FFP compliance and that is way more complicated. The Albion, rightly so, thought the FL would finally grow some Bollocks and punish clubs that chose to pretend FFP didn't apply to them. As usual the 'authorities' bottled it. QFinancially at least, the club got FFP compliance right and I'm still hoping that non-complying clubs get their balls chopped off in the next transfer window but we all expect they'll find ways around their 'punishment'.

What it all boils down to is seeing some success on the pitch in exchange for the bloody high season ticket prices we are paying. Sadly, the club's playing budget has been spunked on what is mainly poorly performing players-that's where the next round of controls need implementing.

Guy Fawkes · Dec 13, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
But Gus left. Managers leave. Where does that leave you if your manager is in charge of everything, then leaves. You have to rely on the ability of the next man.

I can see why Chairman want consistency so that regardless of the coming and goings of managers, the process of identifying targets goes on undeterred.

What perhaps goes wrong with this system is when you have a manager come in who doesn't actually want to get more involved with Burke and his team. I'm not sure in our system that the manager can't have as much influence of transfers as he wants - that is down to them. The only thing he can't influence is the budget, but that would be the same whatever the system.

I don't think Gus left because he fell out with Barber or Burke. Gus left because he knew the club had to spend just that bit more if we were to go up (he was probably right) and when he was told no, he felt we were never going to show the ambition (money) he craved. I genuinely think it was as simple as that.

Maybe Gus also left because he thoguht that he may not get promoted for a while here (if ever) and by stagnating here all he would be doing is harming his long term ambition of managing a top team like Chelsea. Would the Chelsea (or whoever) fans accept a manager from a club like Brighton if he was just a consistant top 10 finisher in the second tier? - he reached a point where he probably wasn't going to improve on his efforts here so to him, he'd made as much of a name for himself as he could here and therefore it was the right time to go (hence the resignation offer prior to Palace at home in March)

spanish flair · Dec 13, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
But Gus left. Managers leave. Where does that leave you if your manager is in charge of everything, then leaves. You have to rely on the ability of the next man.

I can see why Chairman want consistency so that regardless of the coming and goings of managers, the process of identifying targets goes on undeterred.

What perhaps goes wrong with this system is when you have a manager come in who doesn't actually want to get more involved with Burke and his team. I'm not sure in our system that the manager can't have as much influence of transfers as he wants - that is down to them. The only thing he can't influence is the budget, but that would be the same whatever the system.

I don't think Gus left because he fell out with Barber or Burke. Gus left because he knew the club had to spend just that bit more if we were to go up (he was probably right) and when he was told no, he felt we were never going to show the ambition (money) he craved. I genuinely think it was as simple as that.

I understand all that, but please answer my question, what players since Gus left have been brought in that could raise another £16 million. Which is my way of judging how good player recruitment is over a period of time. As a players resale value should be an important part of the evaluation for signings being brought in for money, as we are now a selling club. Will we for instance get the fees back or more for COG or Baldock?

Bold Seagull · Dec 13, 2014

Guy Fawkes said:
Maybe Gus also left because he thoguht that he may not get promoted for a while here (if ever) and by stagnating here all he would be doing is harming his long term ambition of managing a top team like Chelsea. Would the Chelsea (or whoever) fans accept a manager from a club like Brighton if he was just a consistant top 10 finisher in the second tier? - he reached a point where he probably wasn't going to improve on his efforts here so to him, he'd made as much of a name for himself as he could here and therefore it was the right time to go (hence the resignation offer prior to Palace at home in March)

It thought that was pretty much what I said?

spring hall convert · Dec 13, 2014

Those who want Barber to go - what do you understand to be the remit of his job? What are his targets?

I don't really think we can argue with the job he's done with the financials, remove anything that happens on the pitch for a second. He's increased revenue and significantly reduced costs. Off field Brighton has the feel of a well run club - transport, catering, marketing, ticketing, complaint handling/ customer service is all favourably comparable with top flight outfits. This is the nuts and bolts of his job isn't it?

To an extent, I do understand the gripes about the club developing away from the fans a touch but wouldn't that have happened anyway once the initial lust for the Amex had dissipated? We've gone from having to keep 6-9k at The Withdean engaged to 25k+ at the Amex, clearly that is going to involve a different strategy. What does Barber need to do to make this better?

There's a lot of anger at the moment surrounding things happening on the pitch and that's understandable, I just think it's spilling into areas that are counter-productive.

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