Its the People not the Politicians

beorhthelm · Nov 22, 2014

Mustafa said:
Well unlike you, I am absolutely certain that the mainstream media ignores certain issues and promotes others.

as does anyone - what can you say about problems in say Mexico or India? people or media outlets have shperes of interest, and tend to stick to them. most people wouldnt understand TTIP and its a rather dry subject, so the common media generally wont cover it. the more learned media do cover it, you just havent seen/heard/read this so assume no "mainstream" media is covering the subject.

beorhthelm · Nov 22, 2014

Mustafa said:
...A headline like "GOVERNMENTS SELL OFF YOUR RIGHTS TO CORPORATIONS" would most likely sell papers, so that really is no excuse.

maybe the journalists at the mainstream press dont believe your misguided view of TTIP, so dont feel its worth the column inches to explain dull trade negotiations. Ukrakine, Syria, Egypt and to a lesser extent Israel only have our government involved after they became stories "we must do somthing". shirley you see this, and dont think that the UK created say the Syrian uprising . i understand completly from your avatar that you have an interest in this region, so its understandable you focus on that. generally that region has a significant impact on us in the west/UK so it gets coverage. many issues in many other parts of the world not so much. you have bias, media has bias, why does this surprise you?

beorhthelm · Nov 22, 2014

Mustafa said:
Journalists at the mainstream press are employed for two key reasons - to sell papers and to represent the ethos of the outlet. You just need to google "TTIP" to understand how the informed public feels about it

no, i'll find out how a politically biased and motivated subsection of the public feels about it. its funny too how you still focus on what may or may not be the motivation for coverage of the middle east, utterly ignoring this is a small part of the world.

pastafarian · Nov 23, 2014

Mustafa said:
Well unlike you, I am absolutely certain that the mainstream media ignores certain issues and promotes others. A great example of this is TTIP - this is a massive handover of economic and democratic rights to corporations, but as far as I'm aware it hasn't been headline news once. Other examples include the Icelandic revolution, Ukrainian government atrocities, the pro-Gaddafi mass protest, etc. In regards to the environment, the mainstream media is very much pro-oil, anti-renewable energy and likes to perpetuate stories that anthropogenic climate change is a myth. & yes Iraq comes up a lot, usually detailing all the terrible things ISIS is doing to gain public support for military intervention there and in Syria.

I admire the way you are sticking to your guns but have you considered you are wrong.I have managed to keep abreast of all of the above you have mentioned.No they are not always headlines on News at Ten,but neither are they hidden,your implication of this is just a lie.The news is there,it all depends on how much you read and what different publications you read.Anything political for example i like to take a cross section of reports from different organisations and wont rely simply on The Daily Mail or The Guardian,Fox News or CNN to give examples.

You are of course basing your your assumptions on the fact you live in UK.The mainstream media is only reporting what is relevant to UK citizens,or as their opinion polls(like the most read news stories on the BBC website) tells them what the British public are most interested in.Try spending time in Kenya or Uganda,their mainstream media has never heard of Ukraine for example ,its simply not relevant to their citizens.They are awash with news about Somalia,South Sudan and Congo however.They are simply reporting whats relevant.South African news is awash with reports of immigration problems but with people from Zimbabwe.Do the mainstream media in these countries have a hidden agenda because they havnt reported events in Iceland over the last few years.

As for your notion the average person is misinformed

Mustafa said:
the problem is the system which allows Joe Bloggs to become so misinformed that he will vote against his own interests, just like the rest of the public does.

This is just horribly patronising.If i can look at all the information and then come to a conclusion when voting i am sure millions of others are capable of doing the same thing.I might not agree with the final assessment they have made and will debate the issue,i may be wrong or they may be wrong,but saying to people you are simply misinformed is akin to saying you are stupid and too thick to realise it.It is a recurring theme for you though where you imply you know best and everyone else is either misinformed or misguided.

W.C. · Nov 23, 2014

Meade's Ball said:
It sounds as if, like me, you're in the Chuckle Brothers Revolution camp. To Me, To You is a powerful slogan all on its own, but there's something deeply gleeful about a future world filled with mullets and mishaps that few could resist, I think.

Count me in the revolution.

Who would you have first up against the wall? Left a bit, right a bit, to me, to you, bang!

BadFish · Nov 23, 2014

Chicken Run said:
I ought to vote labour but it's twats like you telling me what to read and do gooders supping their cappuccinos in Islington pretending they care for the average Joe that ruin that party! Labour=snide

Hate those do gooders, where are all the do badders these days, thats what the world needs.

BadFish · Nov 23, 2014

Soulman said:
Behave, the Guardian is probably more biased than the Mail and Sun.

Carlsberg is probably the best larger in the world.

BadFish · Nov 23, 2014

gibseagull said:
So, a referendum on every difficult political issue??!!

We get to vote who gets kicked out of a jungle/house and we get to vote who wins singing/talent contest. Why can't we vote on important political policies?

pastafarian · Nov 23, 2014

BadFish said:
Hate those do gooders, where are all the do badders these days, thats what the world needs.

You are stoned again arnt you?

Westdene Seagull · Nov 23, 2014

gibseagull said:
So, a referendum on every difficult political issue??!!

gibseagull said:
So we wouldnt need a government?

It's how the Swizz political model runs and they have a government.

Mustafa said:
TTIP isn't a dry subject at all, the mainstream media just chooses not to sensationalise it like it does everything else. A headline like "GOVERNMENTS SELL OFF YOUR RIGHTS TO CORPORATIONS" would most likely sell papers, so that really is no excuse.

I'd suggest it is you that likes to sensationalise TTIP. Contrary to the media statements and you, all it is about is a trading agreement. It happens to have a clause that allows private companies to sue a government if policy changes and it affects a contract. So for example, back in the 90's the government decided it wanted to upgrade the Bowman battefield radio. Racal won the contract for design and build, Governments often refuse to allow a single contract for R&D and supply so more often than not they will pay a small amount towards the R&D with the promise of a supply contract at the end. Most defence companies run the R&D part at a loss. Racal ran the R&D for this new radio at over a £20m loss because they knew they would get the supply contract at the end. Get's to the end of the R&D and the government turned around and said 'Actually, we've decided to stick with what we've got'.

So Racal are £20m down. It seems entirely reasonable that Racal should have the right to take the matter to court and for a judge to decide if the government were in the wrong or not. That is all TTIP is providing for but it extends the right to do so to American companies. Despite what you and others say, it isn't linked to privatising the NHS. It actually wouldn't affect anything if governments could make ( good ) decisions and stick to them.

Hastings gull · Nov 23, 2014

Mustafa said:
Not necessarily, no. There are plenty of great minds who believe certain anarchist schools of thought are the best political systems. I quite like the idea of social anarchism, although such a radical change is difficult to imagine.

I think we can agree that this change is unlikely to happen -probably because, thankfully, there are even more "great minds" possibly, horror of horrors, people who read the DM) who see the practical dangers and disadvantages of your theories.

Hastings gull · Nov 23, 2014

Mustafa said:
The point is that the mainstream media sensationalises all kinds of different things every day, often laughably trivial things, yet it largely ignores things that oppose the interests of owners of the media and their friends.

TTIP is just one example, another is the Icelandic revolution. An entire European country essentially overthrows the government, rewrites their constitution and puts their criminal bankers behind bars... yet there was pretty much a media blackout on this. Do you remember when the mainstream media was supporting the Free Syrian Army, then the British government gave them lots of aid and weapons? - a couple of years later they became ISIS and now the mainstream media is pushing for military intervention in Syria. I could go on to list countless more examples on a wide range of issues, but the mainstream media is being utilised as a propaganda tool for corporate interests, as troubling as that is.

.

I think I would struggle to refer to Iceland's population as an entire European country, but see that this would suit you, and it could just simply be that what happens in Iceland is really of little interest to most punters here in the UK, as another post suggested to you. Papers have to pay employees and to do this they need to sell their copies, and it is very unlikely that a heading about banking or whatever in Iceland will help this aim. I do agree that they tend to sensationalise - reports as to impending extreme weather would be an example of this - but again, it is a competitive world and they need to attract the attention of the purchaser at the news-stand. Why must everything come round to manipulation by the dreaded ruling classes?

Perhaps you know more about this? But I thought that the decision to arm the Free Syrian Army was to help the overthrow of Assad, who was and presumably still is, regarded as the baddy. Are you now saying the Free Syrian Army is now ISIS - I thought that there were two strands of opposition to Assad -FSA and the muslim fundamentalists?

Soulman · Nov 23, 2014

BadFish said:
Carlsberg is probably the best larger in the world.

Or possibly the best LAGER in the world, good input.

Mr Putdown · Nov 23, 2014

Mustafa said:
another is the Icelandic revolution. An entire European country essentially overthrows the government, rewrites their constitution and puts their criminal bankers behind bars... yet there was pretty much a media blackout on this.

And look at Iceland now, most of the same parties and people back in power.

And that rewritten constitution? Shoved to one side and unlikely to ever see the light of day.

It's a great example of just how people in power will use any trick imaginable to remain in power.

Hastings gull · Nov 23, 2014

Mustafa said:
The FSA are Islamic fundamentalists and always have been. Well before our government chose to arm and aid them, there were scores of videos of them beheading and massacring innocent people being circulated around social media every day. There was a huge amount of propaganda in the mainstream media during the Arab Spring. Another example is the pro-Gaddafi rallying, over a million people rallied in his support in Tripoli's Green Square, again completely ignored. The mainstream media has clear agendas and the reasons can always be narrowed down to swaying the public opinion to support the financial pursuits of the wealthy ruling classes.

These are just some examples, but like I say there are countless. I haven't looked at the Daily Mail today, but I am confident that there will be lots of articles about Muslims or ISIS, how the NHS is failing, how we give too much in welfare, etc. It's all very predictable, they keep hammering their agendas into its readership until they unquestionably believe it - that is how propaganda works.

Thanks for this. Now I have a dilemma here . . Do I accept what you say as the truth, because so much of what you write is, I would estimate, from the narrowest perspective of all on NSC. Do I think this is very informative, or just your usual propaganda -in this sense, with respect, you are your own worst enemy.

Buzzer · Nov 23, 2014

Mr Putdown said:
Eh? Dagur is a doctor, not a comedian.

Jón Gnarr is a comedian and was mayor from 2010-2014.

Buzzer · Nov 23, 2014

sahel said:
Not strange at all. The Guardian is an intelligent paper for people who think - not a comic which sets out to support and proselytise the opinions of its owners. One is reasonably eclectic (though clearly coming from a liberal perspective) the others are not

Did you read any of my reply to you where I copied and pasted Guardian reader comments about that white van man driver? I'm assuming either you missed it completely or you chose to ignore it because it doesn't fit with your world view. Don't worry, you're in good company (other Guardian readers, our resident sixth form Trotskyite: Mustafa).

beorhthelm · Nov 23, 2014

Hastings gull said:
Thanks for this. Now I have a dilemma here . . Do I accept what you say as the truth, .

you shouldnt as most of it is heavily biased. for example his claim that "FSA are islamic fundamentalists", a brief research would tell you its was formed from Syrian army units and along the way absorbed some other groups, that had more islamic-ly motivated objectives. so a group is absorbed and later leaves to join ISIL, in Mustafa's world this means the FSA are now ISIL. meanwhile, to push on my point, there are far more acts of brutatilty going on in Mexico and India on a daily basis than Syria over a month. but they keep in it amongst themsleves so we dont hear about it. kill a thousand of your own people and we'll turn a blind eye, kill 1 of our people and its a massive issue.

pastafarian · Nov 23, 2014

Mustafa said:
I haven't looked at the Daily Mail today, but I am confident that there will be lots of articles about Muslims or ISIS, how the NHS is failing, how we give too much in welfare, etc. It's all very predictable, they keep hammering their agendas into its readership until they unquestionably believe it - that is how propaganda works.

i have just had a brief look at todays copy for you,

i couldnt find any articles about muslims
i couldnt find any articles about welfare
there is 1 article about an official investigation into an A&E closure
there is 1 article about how the SAS have been taking the fight to to ISIS/IS

it would seem you have made some false claims

is this how propaganda works?

Hastings gull · Nov 23, 2014

Mustafa said:
The FSA are Islamic fundamentalists and always have been. Well before our government chose to arm and aid them, there were scores of videos of them beheading and massacring innocent people being circulated around social media every day. There was a huge amount of propaganda in the mainstream media during the Arab Spring. Another example is the pro-Gaddafi rallying, over a million people rallied in his support in Tripoli's Green Square, again completely ignored. The mainstream media has clear agendas and the reasons can always be narrowed down to swaying the public opinion to support the financial pursuits of the wealthy ruling classes.

These are just some examples, but like I say there are countless. I haven't looked at the Daily Mail today, but I am confident that there will be lots of articles about Muslims or ISIS, how the NHS is failing, how we give too much in welfare, etc. It's all very predictable, they keep hammering their agendas into its readership until they unquestionably believe it - that is how propaganda works.

I did you the courtesy of looking at the DM online. Two articles spoke of both major parties losing the support of the common man, one concentrated on the apparent impending resignation of Gordon Brown and one report centered on a liberal politician's cry for the winter fuel allowance to be discontinued to the wealthier OAPs. Yes, this is selective, I realise, but either the big bad ruling classes were having a day off, or perhaps, just perhaps, it might not be, to quote your favourite expression, as far-right as you claim. It is sadly typical of your good self that you felt the need to tell everyone how propaganda works - we could not have worked that out for ourselves, could we? In my case, part of my family lived in East Germany throughout the communist era, and so I really do not need telling, though I appreciate that you did not know this.
I like you and countless millions of others glean our information from the press, NSC, social media, the news on the box, Google, etc etc. We hear many conflicting ideas and opinions, and are able to sift through what we regard as worthy and what we take with a pinch of salt. It happens all the time on a daily basis. Those poor damaged confused souls who read the DM will be no different to you and me, and moreover the xxxxx (you supply the adj) readers of the Guardian, The Times or the Beano. Though this might horrify you, I would put your good self alongside that patronising snooty woman who sneered at the flags and the white van. It clearly never once occurred to her that "white man van" might also have mature political views himself - no, he is just a chav who cannot think for himself!

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