Integration? Yeah right.

midnight_rendezvous · Nov 21, 2014

GT49er said:
That's really funny, because most people - including I suspect most UKIP members themselves - see the party's main priority, indeed the one on which it was founded, as getting Britain out of the EU. I'd have thought that counted just a tad as a change in the status quo.

Ok so they pull out of Europe... then what? What are they going to do to change the perceptions the public have on politicians? How are they going to show themselves are "the real alternative" that "shakes up British politics"? Privatise the NHS? Introduce tax cuts to the rich? Slash maternity leave? Sounds great so far...

GT49er · Nov 21, 2014

midnight_rendezvous said:
Ok so they pull out of Europe... then what? What are they going to do to change the perceptions the public have on politicians? How are they going to show themselves are "the real alternative" that "shakes up British politics"? Privatise the NHS? Introduce tax cuts to the rich? Slash maternity leave? Sounds great so far...

Load of tosh, rumour and scaremongering put up by the establishment to discredit UKIP. There's a lot of that going round. Seems to have worked on you. Privatising the NHS, for example, is a policy that was rejected by UKIP a couple of years ago - but carry on, believe what you like.
We know you will!

midnight_rendezvous · Nov 21, 2014

GT49er said:
Load of tosh, rumour and scaremongering put up by the establishment to discredit UKIP. There's a lot of that going round. Seems to have worked on you. Privatising the NHS, for example, is a policy that was rejected by UKIP a couple of years ago - but carry on, believe what you like.
We know you will!

So even though Both Farage and the UKIP deputy have both said the NHS needs to be reformed and isn't fit for purpose it's actually just rumour... sounds legit. It was also UKIP that promised to impose £40bn of cuts to our NHS; that it would franchise out key services including hospitals and GP surgeries to companies and charities. But carry on, what ever helps you sleep at night.

jimhigham · Nov 21, 2014

Personal opinion as follows...

I would prefer there to be no such thing as "faith schools". I simply do not see how we can hope to create an cohesive, integrated society if we take children in their formative years and institutionalise the concept that we are all different. I am happy enough for schools to provide religious education in terms of explaining the major faiths and their tenets. Religion is a fundamental part of our world and to try and pretend otherwise would be futile.

If a parent feels a real need to instruct their child in their faith then they should take them to church (or mosque/synagogue/gurdwara etc). Schools can then get on with teaching reading, writing, arithmetic and vocational skills.

Is that really such a radical view?

Bold Seagull · Nov 21, 2014

Ban faith schools altogether. State education should be secular.

It is a travesty that publicly funded educational institutions can select on the basis of religion, on attendance at a place of worship, and indoctrinate impressionable young minds.

Leave religion in the hands of families and their local religious leaders. If they want to learn about their 'God', let them do that in their own time.

This isn't about Muslim schools, it should be about all religious schools and it should be stopped. If they want to offer themselves as a religious school, then they should be funded privately, and not receive any state funding. It drives me insane that as a society we can exclude children from a local school because they are not religious - and that is what happens.

Bold Seagull · Nov 21, 2014

jimhigham said:
Personal opinion as follows...

I would prefer there to be no such thing as "faith schools". I simply do not see how we can hope to create an cohesive, integrated society if we take children in their formative years and institutionalise the concept that we are all different. I am happy enough for schools to provide religious education in terms of explaining the major faiths and their tenets. Religion is a fundamental part of our world and to try and pretend otherwise would be futile.

If a parent feels a real need to instruct their child in their faith then they should take them to church (or mosque/synagogue/gurdwara etc). Schools can then get on with teaching reading, writing, arithmetic and vocational skills.

Is that really such a radical view?

We must have been typing pretty much the same thing at the same time! No good getting up in arms about Muslim schools, when Catholic schools have been doing the same thing for decades, if not centuries!

Wrong-Direction · Nov 28, 2014

Stat Brother said:
But the whole debate isn't being had.

How many single faith private schools are there in the UK?
What are all of their Ofsted results?
How do they all compare with state schools?

The list is endless.

The rich white male ruling class are systematically fueling a debate that wouldn't exist if it weren't for them in the first place.
They are using it to gain more power and more control and more money.

Oh arse [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION], you were right, I should have just left well alone.

I'm off for a bike ride now.

Peace out.

Make sure you wear your helmet
[emoji468] [emoji603] [emoji598] [emoji597] [emoji609] [emoji604] [emoji594] [emoji592] [emoji595]

Lethargic · Nov 28, 2014

I am another one in the removal of ALL faith schools. Remembering back to my school (Tarring) RE was the lesson everyone bunked off or just pissed about in I don't remember learning anything religion based.

Simster · Nov 28, 2014

My kids go to a brilliant church school, and I indulged in the required hypocrisy in order to get them in there. However, I too believe in a secular education system and I applaud the French for this.

BigGully · Nov 28, 2014

midnight_rendezvous said:
Debate will probably miss the point and just go about Islam instead of focussing on how it's the kids that are really the ones being screwed over by not receiving a balanced education (something apparent in most faith schools IMO). But no, let the binfest about Johnny Foreigner not integrating commence!

Are you really that dumb, not to differentiate between these exclusively Islamic school's and their teachings compared to say your local Catholic or CofEschool, really

Hastings gull · Nov 28, 2014

Brovion said:
That's very true. However IF these schools are segregating the sexes and not teaching music and drama simply for religious reasons (note the IF), then they must stop doing it immediately. We're a modern, democratic, secular society that tries (with varying degrees of success) to promote equality and fairness - especially gender equality. Schools should prepare children to live in our society. (Lord B made a post on another thread about his kids' C of E school doing exactly that)

Basically if you come from a backward, primitive culture and you come to a modern progressive nation you must abandon your backward and primitive ways and become civilised At the very least you should allow your children to become civilised. Is that really too much to ask?

*Walks away from thread whistling*

Yes, fully agree -the onus is on the immigrant to adopt to the standards of the country they choose. This does not mean OTT regimentation, and an expectation, say, that they change religion, as this country, warts and all, stands for freedom of choice. It therefore follows that schools must do their bit, and after 35 years in education, believe me, this is what is happening in the vast majority. If we allow, or turn a blind eye for fear of being called "racists" (that wonderful catch-all expression) muslim schools to go their own way, and adopt practices contrary to British values, presumably with parental support, we are storing up problems for the future. You are much less likely to produce tolerant citizens if you ban things purely due to selfish one-sided religious reasons.

Hastings gull · Nov 28, 2014

Simster said:
My kids go to a brilliant church school, and I indulged in the required hypocrisy in order to get them in there. However, I too believe in a secular education system and I applaud the French for this.

I admire your honesty! You are not alone! My grand-daughter also goes to a church school (not a fiddle, and she didn't get in because we are religious) and we are most impressed with the standard of education. Yes, in time, she will come home and talk about Jesus in a home which is not particularly churchy, but we will all support the ethos of the school, knowing that in time she will then make her own decisions as to the virtue or otherwise of religion. The school teaches about other religions and I cannot say that it is in the slightest bit pushy. Yes, Reverend so and so takes assemblies etc etc as they did in my school days in the 60s, but I am not a church-goer, nor is 90% of the population, according to rough figures, who also will have had religious assemblies etc. Of course you can argue that faith schools should be closed to avoid the risk of intolerance, bigotry etc but in practice, in CofE schools, at least, is there widespread evidence that large numbers of eventual bigots are turned out?
Sadly, what we have seen in Birmingham is, however, something far more sinister -a deliberate attempt to brainwash young minds, where they would most certainly not be encouraged to make up their minds in later life.

Simster · Nov 28, 2014

I just think that state funded religious schooling causes more problems than it solves. I'm not comfortable with my taxes being used to indoctrinate kids with religious beliefs, regardless of what they are. There should be a transparent standard school curriculum, with a degree of scope to allow for specialised schooling. I'd happily see a standard RE curriculum encompassing knowledge of all faiths, but with no discussion on which to follow or any indoctrination.

That said, the guy who sits next to me sends his kids to a religious school and was telling me that there has been research suggesting that people who were taught in religious schooling have proven to be less likely to offend. I'm not even sure this is true, but even if it was, I'd suggest the parenting of these kids was more relevant anyway.

nwgull · Nov 28, 2014

Catholic school educated women are always dirty (in the good way).

That is all I have to add to this debate/binfest.

Gilliver's Travels · Nov 28, 2014

jimhigham said:
Personal opinion as follows...

I would prefer there to be no such thing as "faith schools". I simply do not see how we can hope to create an cohesive, integrated society if we take children in their formative years and institutionalise the concept that we are all different. I am happy enough for schools to provide religious education in terms of explaining the major faiths and their tenets. Religion is a fundamental part of our world and to try and pretend otherwise would be futile.

If a parent feels a real need to instruct their child in their faith then they should take them to church (or mosque/synagogue/gurdwara etc). Schools can then get on with teaching reading, writing, arithmetic and vocational skills.

Is that really such a radical view?

Absolutely agree. I have no problem at all with kids being taught ABOUT religion, and religions, in an anthropological sense. Religions have indeed shaped human history. But let those lessons be accompanied by exercises in logic, rationalism and probability... How likely is it that Jesus really turned water into wine? That he was born of a virgin and rose from the dead? That in a Catholic church, wine and wafers turn miraculously into the actual blood and body of Jesus? Or that Mohammed rode to heaven on a winged horse... that he split the moon in two? Why does God ban Jews and Muslims from all contact with pork, but has no problem at all with Christians pigging out on it? In short, is man made in God's image, or is it really the other way round?

That way, young minds might just be left to develop undamaged, with an intelligence and natural curiosity that enables them to think for themselves and decide whether enforced religious brainwashing really is the best way to prepare the world's children for their future lives.

rippleman · Nov 28, 2014

Hastings gull said:
Yes, fully agree -the onus is on the immigrant to adopt to the standards of the country they choose. This does not mean OTT regimentation, and an expectation, say, that they change religion, as this country, warts and all, stands for freedom of choice. It therefore follows that schools must do their bit, and after 35 years in education, believe me, this is what is happening in the vast majority. If we allow, or turn a blind eye for fear of being called "racists" (that wonderful catch-all expression) muslim schools to go their own way, and adopt practices contrary to British values, presumably with parental support, we are storing up problems for the future. You are much less likely to produce tolerant citizens if you ban things purely due to selfish one-sided religious reasons.

I logged in especially to give this post a big fat thumbs up!

Sums up the issue completely with "adopt practices contrary to British values, presumably with parental support, we are storing up problems for the future. You are much less likely to produce tolerant citizens if you ban things purely due to selfish one-sided religious reasons."

NO school, faith or otherwise, should be allowed to teach or impose anything that is contrary to the British way of life. So long as the Government (of whatever persuasion) allows them to do so we will never have an "inclusive society" as it is clear that there are faiths and religions that do not aspire to the inclusive society.

Segregation in school is an abomination. Refusing to teach music and drama, and other religious views likewise. It's time the Government got a grip or we will see support for UKIP grow as the country lurches further to the right.

Brighton Mod · Nov 28, 2014

midnight_rendezvous said:
So even though Both Farage and the UKIP deputy have both said the NHS needs to be reformed and isn't fit for purpose it's actually just rumour... sounds legit. It was also UKIP that promised to impose £40bn of cuts to our NHS; that it would franchise out key services including hospitals and GP surgeries to companies and charities. But carry on, what ever helps you sleep at night.

The NHS is not good value and costing more and more, promises from differnet political parties to put more into it are approaching from the wrong perspective, double the money, treble it, it won't change. Regarding faith schools, the clue is in the title and quite rightly should not be allowed to exist in a secular society, he who pays the piper calls the tune and so faith schools teach what they believe is right, contrary to what the majority in this country now believe. Is anyone realy surprised with the findings of this report given that a village school in Lincolshire was recently hauled up by Ofsted for not having a diverse enough spectrum in their teaching programme, the school was termed as 'overwhelmingly white' was that description needd.

MattBackHome · Nov 28, 2014

Simster said:
I just think that state funded religious schooling causes more problems than it solves. I'm not comfortable with my taxes being used to indoctrinate kids with religious beliefs, regardless of what they are. There should be a transparent standard school curriculum, with a degree of scope to allow for specialised schooling. I'd happily see a standard RE curriculum encompassing knowledge of all faiths, but with no discussion on which to follow or any indoctrination.

Totally this, with the addition of the teaching of the possibility of absence of god as well.

Nibble · Nov 28, 2014

Muslim schools should be shut down, the teachers deported and the children returned to a sane school environment.

Brighton Mod · Nov 28, 2014

rippleman said:
I logged in especially to give this post a big fat thumbs up!

Sums up the issue completely with "adopt practices contrary to British values, presumably with parental support, we are storing up problems for the future. You are much less likely to produce tolerant citizens if you ban things purely due to selfish one-sided religious reasons."

NO school, faith or otherwise, should be allowed to teach or impose anything that is contrary to the British way of life. So long as the Government (of whatever persuasion) allows them to do so we will never have an "inclusive society" as it is clear that there are faiths and religions that do not aspire to the inclusive society.

Segregation in school is an abomination. Refusing to teach music and drama, and other religious views likewise. It's time the Government got a grip or we will see support for UKIP grow as the country lurches further to the right.

I hear from politicians that immigrants pay billions in taxes and contribute to the national economy, the difficulty they have is that this issue is not seen as economic by the people. Its about the rapid change to peoples lives and outlook and what they see, hear and feel about this change in which they have had no voice or consultation. The politicians will not change this perception with the constant arguing over figures, this poor behaviour by the three main parties means that UKIP currently don't have to hit the headlines because the other parties are doing all their advertising for them. Maybe a vote for UKIP is more about our political system than the policies they stand for?

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