Film shows Nigel Farage calling for move away from state-funded NHS

bashlsdir said:

UKIP are a new party how about giving them a chance. UKIP are having to adapt quickly. Most of us know the 2010 manifesto was rubbish, so it was nothing new, but at least Farage admits that.

Click to expand...

sahel said:

Yes but it's the fact that he hadn't even read it that speaks volumes to me anyway. I think he is a shallow populist and this is evidence of that. Look at the stuff Clegg gets thrown at him because of the reversal on tuition fees. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander! I don't think most UKIP supporters think beyond immigration and Europe and on both these topics UKIP peddle myths and half truths. Very unpleasant and very dangerous if only for the effect they have on other parties. I suspect we are on the way out of the EU which rightly or wrongly I think will be a disaster and is a decision that will be taken by a population who know precious little about it. Direct democracy is mob rule by another name. The only hope is that in the referendum people will rise to the occasion like the Scots did. I'm not optimistic!

Click to expand...

sahel said:

Manifesto? Ah yes there's a thought. Wasn't the 2010 manifesto, signed off by Farage but not apparently read by him, described later by the man himself as complete rubbish? He was certainly right there. Is this another sign of a "refreshing new politics". You couldn't make it up could you except in UKIP's case you can and keep doing it until you hit upon something that seems popular

Click to expand...

sahel said:

Yes but it's the fact that he hadn't even read it that speaks volumes to me anyway. I think he is a shallow populist and this is evidence of that. Look at the stuff Clegg gets thrown at him because of the reversal on tuition fees. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander! I don't think most UKIP supporters think beyond immigration and Europe and on both these topics UKIP peddle myths and half truths. Very unpleasant and very dangerous if only for the effect they have on other parties. I suspect we are on the way out of the EU which rightly or wrongly I think will be a disaster and is a decision that will be taken by a population who know precious little about it. Direct democracy is mob rule by another name. The only hope is that in the referendum people will rise to the occasion like the Scots did. I'm not optimistic![/QUOTE]

I am not really equipped to say whether UKIP peddle myths etc but suspect that all the parties do to try and convince the voters especially on the subject of the EU. Please do NOT think that I am trying to be superior, I really am not, but I suspect the same, namely that millions will vote either way, not really knowing what it is totally about. I could not claim to know the intricacies of the EU, (and this from someone who does read the papers and lived in Germany for 24 years) and I imagine that this would go for most folk, despite what you might hear! A plebiscite is good for morale, I accept, but it has its dangers. If we just say -do you want to stay in the EU, yes or no -this would be very simplistic, and presumably suit those who want us out. Would they be voting for what is genuinely for the best (subjective, I know!!) or simply because eg they don't like foreigners and want to keep the pound. Of course there are also "better" reasons such as keeping borders secure, being fed up with dictated to by unrepresentative quangos, and being worried by the strains on public services caused by excessive immigration
The success of the plebiscite depends on the question and it will be very difficult to work one out that will suit all, if the government does not go for "yes or no".
Two hypothetical questions, both concerning our membership of the EU - a bit OTT, I know.

1 Do you want to stay in an organisation which can influence your judicial system, demand cash when your economy is at its best, and insist that you take any migrants who wish to come to the UK, irrespective of their chances of work.
2 Do you want to stay in an organisation which allows free trade, gets rid of borders to enable easier journeys and gives you the opportunity to purchase larger amounts of alcohol in Calais.

I would imagine that the results would be very different.

Click to expand...

Hastings gull said:

sahel said:

Yes but it's the fact that he hadn't even read it that speaks volumes to me anyway. I think he is a shallow populist and this is evidence of that. Look at the stuff Clegg gets thrown at him because of the reversal on tuition fees. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander! I don't think most UKIP supporters think beyond immigration and Europe and on both these topics UKIP peddle myths and half truths. Very unpleasant and very dangerous if only for the effect they have on other parties. I suspect we are on the way out of the EU which rightly or wrongly I think will be a disaster and is a decision that will be taken by a population who know precious little about it. Direct democracy is mob rule by another name. The only hope is that in the referendum people will rise to the occasion like the Scots did. I'm not optimistic![/QUOTE]

I am not really equipped to say whether UKIP peddle myths etc but suspect that all the parties do to try and convince the voters especially on the subject of the EU. Please do NOT think that I am trying to be superior, I really am not, but I suspect the same, namely that millions will vote either way, not really knowing what it is totally about. I could not claim to know the intricacies of the EU, (and this from someone who does read the papers and lived in Germany for 24 years) and I imagine that this would go for most folk, despite what you might hear! A plebiscite is good for morale, I accept, but it has its dangers. If we just say -do you want to stay in the EU, yes or no -this would be very simplistic, and presumably suit those who want us out. Would they be voting for what is genuinely for the best (subjective, I know!!) or simply because eg they don't like foreigners and want to keep the pound. Of course there are also "better" reasons such as keeping borders secure, being fed up with dictated to by unrepresentative quangos, and being worried by the strains on public services caused by excessive immigration
The success of the plebiscite depends on the question and it will be very difficult to work one out that will suit all, if the government does not go for "yes or no".
Two hypothetical questions, both concerning our membership of the EU - a bit OTT, I know.

1 Do you want to stay in an organisation which can influence your judicial system, demand cash when your economy is at its best, and insist that you take any migrants who wish to come to the UK, irrespective of their chances of work.
2 Do you want to stay in an organisation which allows free trade, gets rid of borders to enable easier journeys and gives you the opportunity to purchase larger amounts of alcohol in Calais.

I would imagine that the results would be very different.

Click to expand...

Number 2 was what it used to be like. It doesn't work like that now as you know. It's been changed and that is the problem. That was a time before Labour opened our doors.

Click to expand...

bashlsdir said:

Hastings gull said:

Number 2 was what it used to be like. It doesn't work like that now as you know. It's been changed and that is the problem. That was a time before Labour opened our doors.

Click to expand...

You do realise that I was only using the 2 questions as an example to demonstrate the problems of a plebiscite. By the way, I buy cheap booze in Calais and go through borders without stopping, and so this is still the case. Previously, when travelling back to the UK on leave, I used to have to stop to show a passport in Holland, Belgium. France, and Dover, keeping 5 currencies on me just in case! As to the free trade bit, if you know more about this, then fine. As I said, I am not an expert.

Click to expand...

Hastings gull said:

bashlsdir said:

You do realise that I was only using the 2 questions as an example to demonstrate the problems of a plebiscite. By the way, I buy cheap booze in Calais and go through borders without stopping, and so this is still the case. Previously, when travelling back to the UK on leave, I used to have to stop to show a passport in Holland, Belgium. France, and Dover, keeping 5 currencies on me just in case! As to the free trade bit, if you know more about this, then fine. As I said, I am not an expert.

Click to expand...

I used to honestly prefer it when everyone had their own currency.

Click to expand...

Hastings gull said:

You do realise that I was only using the 2 questions as an example to demonstrate the problems of a plebiscite. By the way, I buy cheap booze in Calais and go through borders without stopping, and so this is still the case. Previously, when travelling back to the UK on leave, I used to have to stop to show a passport in Holland, Belgium. France, and Dover, keeping 5 currencies on me just in case! As to the free trade bit, if you know more about this, then fine. As I said, I am not an expert.

Click to expand...

Westdene Seagull said:

Unfortunately too many people support our membership of the EU "because it makes it easy to have one currency when I go on holiday". It was an argument used for us joining the Euro. The issue is far deeper than the benefits of currency exchange and not having to make the very small effort to flash your passport ( which takes me all of 30 seconds at Newhaven when I go to France ).

Click to expand...

bashlsdir said:

UKIP are a new party how about giving them a chance.

Click to expand...

beorhthelm said:

utter bollocks. they've been around for 20 years and had MEP's for 15. its fine to change and distance yourself from an old manifesto, but if you are leader you are/were responsible for it, it looks pretty ropey if you do.

Click to expand...