The Islamic Future of Britain

Brighton Mod · Sep 17, 2014

KZNSeagull said:
Indeed. Loads of burkha wearing muslims here and it is not viewed as an issue. As long as people stick within the laws of a particular country, they can do as they please as far as I am concerned. It's a free country, and all that.

I flew from Kuwait in 1993 and many Burkha clad women were on the plane, 20 minutes into the flight many went to the toilets and changed into jeans and tee shirts, on the trip back to Kuwait the reverse happened. Did they chose to wear jenas or the Burkha? The Burkha is a symbol of subjugation and is an exertion of mens control over women. Is symbolism has nothing to do with Islam, it should be banned as it takes no accounts of womens rights or views.

KZNSeagull · Sep 17, 2014

Brighton Mod said:
I flew from Kuwait in 1993 and many Burkha clad women were on the plane, 20 minutes into the flight many went to the toilets and changed into jeans and tee shirts, on the trip back to Kuwait the reverse happened. Did they chose to wear jenas or the Burkha? The Burkha is a symbol of subjugation and is an exertion of mens control over women. Is symbolism has nothing to do with Islam, it should be banned as it takes no accounts of womens rights or views.

I don't disagree that it is a symbol of subjugation. At the end of the day it is a matter of personal choice (clearly those women on that plane had a choice), though. Instead of banning the wearing in the UK, because some muslim women will still want to wear them, steps have to be put in place to help muslim women living in the UK to stand up for themselves if they so desire. How that would happen, I have no idea, sadly. Afterall, I don't believe it is against the law for a non-muslim to insist how his wife dresses and behaves. Banning would just lead to more issues than it solves, I reckon.

daveinprague · Sep 17, 2014

I know plenty of muslims who wouldnt dream of wearing a burkha...but ive seen plenty that want to. Im not so sure they are being subjugated, if its something they want to do. Its really not something that I worry about though. Most women in Saudi were wearing it when I was there in the late 70s... but quite a large percentage didnt...the 'I want to wear a balaclava if they wear a burkha' is a bit playgroundish dont you think?

Pavilionaire · Sep 17, 2014

Imagine if God had said to Eve "Forget the fig leaf, here's a pencil now draw me your ideal regular daily outfit". Does anybody think for one moment she'd have come up with a head-to-toe 'all in one' garment complete with "pillar box-style slot" for her eyes?

The rights of women is one of the important tenets that this country stands for, as is free speech and freedom of choice. So banning the burkha is wrong. However, if the case against is made effectively the burkha will die out naturally and organically.

Guinness Boy · Sep 17, 2014

Brighton Mod said:
I flew from Kuwait in 1993 and many Burkha clad women were on the plane, 20 minutes into the flight many went to the toilets and changed into jeans and tee shirts, on the trip back to Kuwait the reverse happened. Did they chose to wear jenas or the Burkha? The Burkha is a symbol of subjugation and is an exertion of mens control over women. Is symbolism has nothing to do with Islam, it should be banned as it takes no accounts of womens rights or views.

If you ban it you're making the same sweeping judgement as the compulsory wearing of it. There is literally no right answer and, as a species we're far too quick to call for ill though through legislation to cope with a knee jerk reaction.

You could argue in a court that a husband forcing a wife to wear a burqa against her will consisted of psychological abuse and there is a move currently to introduce stricter laws around this. It would be a brave Muslim woman who left her family and community though.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/20/domestic-abuse-law-partners_n_5694055.html

As for changing in to jeans you could just as well argue they felt forced to fit in with Western dress outside of Kuwait.

narly101 · Sep 17, 2014

Have we moved back to the argument/discussion on halal meat and its prevalence in the UK?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...at-without-telling-students-just-cheaper.html

narly101 · Sep 17, 2014

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/environment/article4187646.ece - nice

Brighton Mod · Sep 17, 2014

Guinness Boy said:
If you ban it you're making the same sweeping judgement as the compulsory wearing of it. There is literally no right answer and, as a species we're far too quick to call for ill though through legislation to cope with a knee jerk reaction.

You could argue in a court that a husband forcing a wife to wear a burqa against her will consisted of psychological abuse and there is a move currently to introduce stricter laws around this. It would be a brave Muslim woman who left her family and community though.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/20/domestic-abuse-law-partners_n_5694055.html

As for changing in to jeans you could just as well argue they felt forced to fit in with Western dress outside of Kuwait.

It could be equally argued so, but where does the relgion come into this, does the Koran insist on the wearing of jeans? Take a walk around Dubai, where the religious police are highly visible and you can see the high heels and jeans below the Burkhas, a clash of cultures or just the rich placating ther wives. I also spent time in Somalia, a Muslem country, but with its own language, no Burkhas at all evident there, just coloirful clothing in a very poor country. The only concession was headress. The Burkha, along with not drinking alcohol, beheading people and FGM does not come from the Koran, Turkish muslems drink alcohol, wear western clothing, as did the women in Iraq under Sadam. The Burkha is not a religious symbol, it only identifies repressed women who must act at the behest of the male.

Soulman · Sep 17, 2014

KZNSeagull said:
I don't disagree that it is a symbol of subjugation. At the end of the day it is a matter of personal choice (clearly those women on that plane had a choice), though. Instead of banning the wearing in the UK, because some muslim women will still want to wear them, steps have to be put in place to help muslim women living in the UK to stand up for themselves if they so desire. How that would happen, I have no idea, sadly. Afterall, I don't believe it is against the law for a non-muslim to insist how his wife dresses and behaves. Banning would just lead to more issues than it solves, I reckon.

"How would that happen". I'm sure if the women went to one of those fair mediating courts then if they felt that they were being forced to wear the bhurka, I'm sure the what's it called....sharia court, would soon sort things out in the woman's favour.

beorhthelm · Sep 17, 2014

Brighton Mod said:
The Burkha is not a religious symbol, it only identifies repressed women who must act at the behest of the male.

it absolutely is religious. its down to an interpretation of how seriously and literally a particular religious tenet, preserving modesty, should be taken. most anomalies in religion are the same, because the stupid books where written 2000 years ago, and different people want to use the text to their own ends, so adjust the meaning to suit. just the as the christian puritans who banned christmas, destroyed idols and whitewashed the churches.

Guinness Boy · Sep 17, 2014

Brighton Mod said:
It could be equally argued so, but where does the relgion come into this, does the Koran insist on the wearing of jeans? Take a walk around Dubai, where the religious police are highly visible and you can see the high heels and jeans below the Burkhas, a clash of cultures or just the rich placating ther wives. I also spent time in Somalia, a Muslem country, but with its own language, no Burkhas at all evident there, just coloirful clothing in a very poor country. The only concession was headress. The Burkha, along with not drinking alcohol, beheading people and FGM does not come from the Koran, Turkish muslems drink alcohol, wear western clothing, as did the women in Iraq under Sadam. The Burkha is not a religious symbol, it only identifies repressed women who must act at the behest of the male.

The Koran doesn't insist on the wearing of jeans or burqas. The passage that is commonly interpreted by scholarly men to mean the Burqa should be worn is this one from Surah 24 Verse 31. It's on the wiki page under Burqa but to save people googling:

"And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"

Totally agree with you on other interpretations, not all Muslim women wear burqas in India or Malysia either for example though some do.

The only place I differ with you is that it is far too sweeping a statement to say that no Muslim woman wants to wear a Burqa (in fact the ones that do in certain parts of India stick out like sore thumbs so it could be seen as either the result of male subjugation OR pride OR defiance).

I think legislating against the burqa would be counter productive and illiberal. That doesn't mean I agree with it. I personally find it oppressive, ugly and medieval.

KZNSeagull · Sep 17, 2014

Soulman said:
"How would that happen". I'm sure if the women went to one of those fair mediating courts then if they felt that they were being forced to wear the bhurka, I'm sure the what's it called....sharia court, would soon sort things out in the woman's favour.

In the same way that non-muslim women in the UK are not still bound by victorian social conventions, for example. By standing up for themselves, by showing that some of the things that they are compelled to do by controlling husbands/institutions/whatever, are not how they want to live. The only way they will do that is if UK society as a whole allows them and gives them the opportunity to do it, which by and large it does. Women's Lib, for want of a better expression. They have to have the right to change if they individually want to, not have change imposed upon them all by sections of a society that does not understand their values and needs.

Brighton Mod · Sep 17, 2014

beorhthelm said:
it absolutely is religious. its down to an interpretation of how seriously and literally a particular religious tenet, preserving modesty, should be taken. most anomalies in religion are the same, because the stupid books where written 2000 years ago, and different people want to use the text to their own ends, so adjust the meaning to suit. just the as the christian puritans who banned christmas, destroyed idols and whitewashed the churches.

For those who view the Burkha it may be relgious, but some who have to wear it, it is a label, a burden and tool of control. Ask those women living in Raqqa who now have to cover whereas before they didn't, its not their choice its been imposed on them. Does it make them more religious wearing the Burkha or not? The Koran was completed 1400 years ago with interpretations of it varying widely, but one thing that Islam does do is to bring each follower into closer communication with their own god, except women who have to do as they are told.

Dick Knights Mumm · Sep 18, 2014

KZNSeagull said:
United Kingdom law. The issue is not the existence of these courts, but whether they contravene UK law - ie there is nothing wrong with them as long as the participants are willing and they do not break the law of the land.

Re your point where participants are not willing, then steps must be put in place where those that have been forced into something against their will can freely and easily report the matter to the police - that is not something that is unique to the Muslim community.

Does this happen in any organised, methodical fashion. Or are they best lest to their own devices to avoid being called a racist.

Dick Knights Mumm · Sep 18, 2014

father_and_son said:
A religious scholar is someone who studies the text, meaning and interpretation of religious teachings... A vicar, a Rabbi, An Iman... It this context it would be an Iman who has studied Sharia Law pretty much all his life. He will understand the absolute written word, its literal meaning and its interpretation through thousands of fatwahs that have been debated and agreed.

The jurisdiction is only limited by what people bring to them to adjudicate on... What do think these courts are used for? This isn't a replacement for the European Court of Human Rights... these are 'contractual' disputes between individuals.

The courts work almost identically to a magistrates court. There is a committee of scholars who will listen to both sides of the argument and pass a judgement they believe is fair and in keeping with the principles of Sharia Law. Sharia Law is written down, it is documented, it's not just some bloke making it up as he goes along. If one Scholar is offering biased judgements he is removed by his peers, if a whole court is biased, people stop using it and senior Imans will step in.

There is 800 years of jurisprudence behind these courts, its not some kangaroo affair run by Uncle Bob in someone's back room - these men have studied for decades to sit in a court.

To put it into context, Sharia Law has existed roughly the same length of time that a single legal system has applied to England and Wales. There is a lot of organisation behind this, they take it very seriously indeed. A lot of people have worked very hard to make sure its right and works, exactly the same amount of effort which has gone into our legal system.

You clearly have more faith in the procedures than me. So it is self-policing. A patriarchal culture has its own self-policed court. Good luck to 50 percent of the population.

DavidinSouthampton · Sep 18, 2014

daveinprague said:
Lots of non muslim men and women seem to agree that the Burkha is bad, but then again, ive seen countless muslim, burkha wearing women interviewed, who find it a comfort, and prefer to wear it.....who do I believe? People who actually wear it, or people who will see offence in every corner of the universe, particularly if muslims are involved?

I had a conversation a few years ago with a Christian and fairly political, liberal and enlightened couple in France - a protestant pastor and his wife - while they were debating the potential banning of the Burkha. He disagreed with the ban, saying that if people want to wear it, they should be allowed to do so. She was all for the ban because she saw it as a symbol of the oppression of women.

The truth is I guess that it can be either.... or rather the truth is clearly that it can be either. If a woman is forced to wear it by her husband/family/society/law of the land, it's wrong. If she chooses to wear it because she is more comfortable doing so, then who can argue with that.

Any Muslim that I have ever talked to about it would say that there is absolutely no compulsion for women to wear a burkha, it is more about dressing fairly modestly and not provocatively.

Nibble · Sep 18, 2014

Dick Knights Mumm said:
You clearly have more faith in the procedures than me. So it is self-policing. A patriarchal culture has its own self-policed court. Good luck to 50 percent of the population.

This. What recourse do the women have?! Absolutely none. The mistake many people make is that they think religious people are reasonable people when by absolute definition they are the opposite.

Goldstone1976 · Sep 18, 2014

DavidinSouthampton said:
If a woman is forced to wear it by her husband/family/society/law of the land, it's wrong. If she chooses to wear it because she is more comfortable doing so, then who can argue with that.

Any Muslim that I have ever talked to about it would say that there is absolutely no compulsion for women to wear a burkha, it is more about dressing fairly modestly and not provocatively.

It's hard to argue with the first sentence I've left in of your post.

I take as read the truth of your second sentence. However, have you ever spoken to a burqa-wearing woman or her husband? I suspect that the women who do wear a burqa or, perhaps more importantly, their husbands are much less likely to talk to a white, western man (assuming that's what you are) than more "moderate" (for want of a better word) muslims. I have no doubt that some women who wear burqas do so out of their free choice. Regrettably, I have little doubt that many do so due to societal pressure.

DavidinSouthampton · Sep 18, 2014

Goldstone1976 said:
It's hard to argue with the first sentence I've left in of your post.

I take as read the truth of your second sentence. However, have you ever spoken to a burqa-wearing woman or her husband? I suspect that the women who do wear a burqa or, perhaps more importantly, their husbands are much less likely to talk to a white, western man (assuming that's what you are) than more "moderate" (for want of a better word) muslims. I have no doubt that some women who wear burqas do so out of their free choice. Regrettably, I have little doubt that many do so due to societal pressure.

I have not conducted extensive conversations with burkha wearing women or their husbands, and am not pretending to have any enormous insight in to the matter. The Muslims I know would also tend to be moderate, so I accept your point entirely. The trouble is, how do you tell where it is pressure and where it is choice.

Goldstone1976 · Sep 18, 2014

DavidinSouthampton said:
I have not conducted extensive conversations with burkha wearing women or their husbands, and am not pretending to have any enormous insight in to the matter. The Muslims I know would also tend to be moderate, so I accept your point entirely. The trouble is, how do you tell where it is pressure and where it is choice.

Quite so. I too have no real knowledge about the subject and haven't spoken to burqa-wearing women or their husbands. It's a really tough one. In principle, I would say that it's wrong for a woman to be forced to wear a burqa. In a Western democracy it should be easier than in an Islamic state to ensure they don't have to. But it's still remarkably hard to achieve, in part for the question you pose. Also, we have to guard against projecting our cultural norms onto another section of society, just because we're uncomfortable with it. On the other hand, I do give some credence to the belief that if a person has chosen to live in a foreign country they should try to assimilate somewhat.

You'll be able to tell that I'm horribly conflicted about this! I do however believe it is a mistake to just outright ban the wearing of burqas.

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