If Scotland votes yes, should Cameron resign ?

Bold Seagull · Sep 16, 2014

The Spanish said:
Is it distance, nationality, or political allegiance, that is the tipping factor in this theoretical scenario?

I have no idea really. Personally, I don't think independence is going to make a single Scot feel anymore Scottish than they already do. I think the whole debate is about power and control. Westminster realised this suddenly 2 or 3 weeks ago when the polls showed a dramatic swing to the Yes and they started scrambling around for further devolved powers - this should have happened long before now.

Labour hold 41 of the 59 seats Scottish available in Westminster, the SNP holds the majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament - it is a clear democratic demonstration of their desire to see left leaning politics and more control over their own affairs - something that has been ignored until this point.

Following this referendum, I think our big cities and regions won't be long in following with their own assemblies or more control of local politics. Devolving power isn't a natural ideology of the right, but I think even they realise this would strengthen the overall economy giving balance to very different economic realities around the country.

Buzzer · Sep 16, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
In a parallel universe where the UK parliament was controlled from Edinburgh, that decisions for the South East were made by a majority of socialist Scots 500 miles away - I assume you'd be voting yes for an independent England rather than remain within a Union?

The problem with this argument is that for the previous 14 years, Scottish voters returned Labour MPs and we had a Labour Government carrying out their wishes and with a larger than average proportion of Scottish MPs in senior positions due to the higher proportion of Scottish Labour MPs and the skewed weighting of Scottish MPs per capita. It does rather seem like the Scots going off in a strop now that the vagaries of UK democracy returns a Government that they don't like. And fuelled by Nationalist rhetoric that would be unacceptable to many if English nationalists were to say the equivalent words.

Even the phrase 'English Nationalist' is enough to get the likes of DaveInPrague in a right old tizz. No such reaction when 'Scottish Nationalism' mentioned.

beorhthelm · Sep 16, 2014

this topic is raised and debated elsewhere. I've come to the conclusion that those that think Cameron should resign in the event of a Yes, are those on the left that want to attack him for being a Tory PM and those on the right who dont think hes good enough/right wing enough to be a Tory PM. in other words anyone with a political axe to grind.

Buzzer · Sep 16, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
Labour hold 41 of the 59 seats Scottish available in Westminster, the SNP holds the majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament - it is a clear democratic demonstration of their desire to see left leaning politics and more control over their own affairs - something that has been ignored until this point. .

Except the 3 previous Labour administrations where they get their wishes. See post above.

Bold Seagull · Sep 16, 2014

Buzzer said:
The problem with this argument is that for the previous 14 years, Scottish voters returned Labour MPs and we had a Labour Government carrying out their wishes and with a larger than average proportion of Scottish MPs in senior positions due to the higher proportion of Scottish Labour MPs and the skewed weighting of Scottish MPs per capita. It does rather seem like the Scots going off in a strop now that the vagaries of UK democracy returns a Government that they don't like. And fuelled by Nationalist rhetoric that would be unacceptable to many if English nationalists were to say the equivalent words.

Even the phrase 'English Nationalist' is enough to get the likes of DaveInPrague in a right old tizz. No such reaction when 'Scottish Nationalism' mentioned.

That is because they are 2 very different things as well you know. Our 'nationalists' have a very different agenda to those of the Scottish or Welsh.

Buzzer · Sep 16, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
That is because they are 2 very different things as well you know. Our 'nationalists' have a very different agenda to those of the Scottish or Welsh.

Hmm...I'm not so sure with SNP. They do love to stir up latent anti-English resentment, Scots and English nationalists may have different targets and the SNP may be a little more subtle but they often carry the same message. What about the rest of my points about the Scots having got the Government they wanted for the previous 14 years, and over-representation in senior positions?

seagullsovergrimsby · Sep 16, 2014

The Ipsos/Mori poll due out tomorrow could be the most accurate indicator to the final outcome on Thursday. Will Dodgy Dave and his cronies be quaffing champagne early on Friday morning or shifting the blame elsewhere (Milibland and Brown not doing enough to persuade Labour voters in Scotland to vote No) ?

Buzzer · Sep 16, 2014

FWIW, yes I think Cameron should resign if Scotland votes for independence and as someone else said, not least because he's the leader of the Conservative and Unionist Party and that should still mean something to a principled man.

Herr Tubthumper · Sep 16, 2014

Green Cross Code Man said:
My country is not Britain. It is England.

What does your passport say?

Bold Seagull · Sep 16, 2014

Buzzer said:
Except the 3 previous Labour administrations where they get their wishes. See post above.

I don't think devolution was intended to be a static inflexible beast was it? It was never a case of here you go, control this bit and be happy. The independence has been on the political table since the 1979 referendum for a Scottish Assembly that got the yes vote but fell slightly short of the 40% required turnout. I don't think you can say (the nationalists at least) were happy under Labour now want something different under the tories. This has been on the table for 40 years or more. What has failed to materialise since 2007 and the SNP getting their first majority in the Scottish Parliament is further recognition of this political will, and the devolution of more powers. Had that been prioritised before we got to a month before the vote, we really may not have been seeing such a close contest (although that is obviously just speculation based on a swing back to No once Westminster announced formerly an offer of more devolved powers unilaterally).

Buzzer · Sep 16, 2014

Herr Tubthumper said:
What does your passport say?

Of course it says GB but that's not what he meant and I think you know it. It's who he identifies with regardless of what a bit of paper says. I think you've said before that you feel the same about being a pan-European despite your passport telling you that you're actually British.

Buzzer · Sep 16, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
I don't think devolution was intended to be a static inflexible beast was it? It was never a case of here you go, control this bit and be happy.

I think I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I think that devolution was definitely intended to kill the debate about independence.

Pavilionaire · Sep 16, 2014

I can't believe that more wasn't made at the time of Cameron permitting 16-17 year olds to vote in the Scottish referendum.

Moreover, refusing Salmond's request for devo max on the ballot paper, then basically conceding all the devo max benefits a week and a half before the vote, AND STILL having the possibility of breaking up the union is one of the more spectacular political misjudgements of our time.

However, I'm not in favour of change for the sake of change. IMHO there isn't anyone else in the Tory Party with the right credentials to take over and improve on Cameron. Yet as a Europhile I have a nagging worry that if he can't persuade the Scots to stay in the union then how effective will he be in persuading the rest of Britain to stay in Europe come the EU referendum? He will be seen as a loser by the rest of the UK and Farage will have a field day in the head-to-head debates.

I agree with the earlier poster that Boris Johnson standing as an MP is a Tory insurance policy should things go tits up for Cameron. One thing Boris could do is go head-to-head with Farage and come out on top, quanvishing the UKIP threat once and for all.

Bold Seagull · Sep 16, 2014

Buzzer said:
Hmm...I'm not so sure with SNP. They do love to stir up latent anti-English resentment, Scots and English nationalists may have different targets and the SNP may be a little more subtle but they often carry the same message. What about the rest of my points about the Scots having got the Government they wanted for the previous 14 years, and over-representation in senior positions?

I was wondering about this myself. If Scotland votes Yes, where will this actually leave the SNP? I actually suspect that in their first general election, the SNP would get no where. They would have served their political purpose to the electorate hence why they only seem to vote for them for the Scottish Parliament and not Westminster. The SNP has served a purpose for demonstrating a political will for more power. Even with a No vote, it will be seen for many suspect on either side as a victory because whatever happens, they are going to have a lot more power over their own affairs.

Buzzer · Sep 16, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
I was wondering about this myself. If Scotland votes Yes, where will this actually leave the SNP? I actually suspect that in their first general election, the SNP would get no where. They would have served their political purpose to the electorate hence why they only seem to vote for them for the Scottish Parliament and not Westminster. The SNP has served a purpose for demonstrating a political will for more power. Even with a No vote, it will be seen for many suspect on either side as a victory because whatever happens, they are going to have a lot more power over their own affairs.

A very good point, and it makes me wish for a Yes vote purely to see the SNP having to do all the nasty stuff that's necessary for Governments in power and then get annihilated in the next election. At the moment they've got a get out of jail free card with being able to blame those nasty English. Reported in the BBC and Scottish Herald is £400m worth of deferred cuts to NHS to come soon. I suspect there's plenty more of that to come and the SNP have absolutely no experience in being the bad guys. They're gonna crash and burn.

beorhthelm · Sep 16, 2014

Buzzer said:
FWIW, yes I think Cameron should resign if Scotland votes for independence and as someone else said, not least because he's the leader of the Conservative and Unionist Party and that should still mean something to a principled man.

look up the name of the party and its origins.

fat old seagull · Sep 16, 2014

Buzzer said:
FWIW, yes I think Cameron should resign if Scotland votes for independence and as someone else said, not least because he's the leader of the Conservative and Unionist Party and that should still mean something to a principled man.

True, but I haven't seen a great deal of principles on show with politicians, councillors or government employees in general...especially when self preservation is at stake.

Buzzer · Sep 16, 2014

beorhthelm said:
look up the name of the party and its origins.

Sorry, I don't get your point. That's the full name of their party and they've always been the mainland party that's been strongest on the union. Am I missing something here?

fat old seagull · Sep 16, 2014

Buzzer said:
Of course it says GB but that's not what he meant and I think you know it. It's who he identifies with regardless of what a bit of paper says. I think you've said before that you feel the same about being a pan-European despite your passport telling you that you're actually British.

The more I consider the nightmare of a YES vote the larger the monster grows. I say that, as now that Passports have been mentioned, who will need new Passports? The Scots will no longer be Brits so do they surrender theirs ? Do they need to buy a tv licence ...... I've got a headache. :facepalm:

Pavilionaire · Sep 16, 2014

I fancy those that vote YES will be well-disposed towards Salmond in their first general election because he has shown good leadership skills. I'm also sure many of the NO voters will feel if they have to live in an independent country then Salmond's commitment may be a better bet in the short term.

The Scottish Westminster MPs have campaigned for NO, so it remains to be seen how the likes of Gordon Brown, Douglas Alexander, Danny Alexander and Charles Kennedy might fit in to the political landscape of an independent Scotland.

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If Scotland votes yes, should Cameron resign ?

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