Ched Evans

Acker79 · Nov 22, 2014

BensGrandad said:
What is different ? Evans didnt intend to rape the sweet innocent girl as he maintains she consented to everything.

One is one person wanting sex and taking it without regard to the woman's vulnerable state. If he does what he wants to do, a woman is used for sex without the ability to consent.

The other is someone wanting to drive home, if he does what he wants to do, he gets home.

Evans wanted sex with the girl his friend pulled, he got what what he wanted, regardless of what she wanted or was capable of wanting.
McCormick wanted to drive home, he did not set out to take a life thinking he could find someone who was desperate to be euthanised couldn't find them, so killed to unwilling kids instead.

Surely you can see the difference?

BensGrandad · Nov 22, 2014

Acker79 said:
One is one person wanting sex and taking it without regard to the woman's vulnerable state. If he does what he wants to do, a woman is used for sex without the ability to consent.

The other is someone wanting to drive home, if he does what he wants to do, he gets home.

Evans wanted sex with the girl his friend pulled, he got what what he wanted, regardless of what she wanted or was capable of wanting.
McCormick wanted to drive home, he did not set out to take a life thinking he could find someone who was desperate to be euthanised couldn't find them, so killed to unwilling kids instead.
8
Surely you can see the difference?

That is the whole point of a possible appeal his lawyers maintain that isnt what happened. I do not understand why people are still going on about this with no knowledge other than media reports, all will be resolved soon.

This thread should have been locked ages ago as should all reporting as the matter is now in legal hands.

spring hall convert · Nov 22, 2014

Acker79 said:
One is one person wanting sex and taking it without regard to the woman's vulnerable state. If he does what he wants to do, a woman is used for sex without the ability to consent.

The other is someone wanting to drive home, if he does what he wants to do, he gets home.

Evans wanted sex with the girl his friend pulled, he got what what he wanted, regardless of what she wanted or was capable of wanting.
McCormick wanted to drive home, he did not set out to take a life thinking he could find someone who was desperate to be euthanised couldn't find them, so killed to unwilling kids instead.

Surely you can see the difference?

Yeah but in fairness

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...-for-groping-woman-and-breaking-her-nose.html

Acker79 · Nov 22, 2014

BensGrandad said:
That is the whole point of a possible appeal his lawyers maintain that isnt what happened. I do not understand why people are still going on about this with no knowledge other than media reports, all will be resolved soon.

You've just completely changed the discussion you were having.

What does the similarities or differences to McCormick or Hughes's case have to with that how Evans is trying to get his conviction overturned? You were trying to draw a parallel between the cases as justification for letting Evans just swan back into Sheffield Utd.

The intent is why the cases can't be compared. It is why people are more forgiving of McCormick and Hughes - neither of them set out to kill anyone, what they were trying to do went wrong, and resulted in deaths.

What Evans was trying to do went exactly how he wanted it to. He wasn't trying to do something else and accidentally ended up having sex with her. He set out to have sex with her, and that's what he did. It was a deliberate, pre-planned action on his part.

That is why they can't be compared.

Even if she consented, he still did what he set out to do - have sex with her. Which still makes the killing of those two kids by McCormick something you can't compare to them.

So you need to draw a line between those arguments. McCormick and Hughes's cases have no bearing whatsoever on the defence's appeal claims.

Steve.S · Nov 22, 2014

Rape comes after sex crimes against children, lowest of the low. Should Evans resume his carer or get a job else where. The question has to be asked, would anyone want a convicted rapist working along side their wife/girlfriend/daughters? That's the trouble with society, yes people should be given a second chance, but a lot of people will always say not near me. Unfortunately some crimes will always be more abhorrent then others. The question for Evans will be where does he go if his appeal fails? More to the point, what if he wins his appeal, I have a feeling that his character has been tarnished and he will find it hard to get a club.

Acker79 · Nov 22, 2014

spring hall convert said:
Yeah but in fairness

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...-for-groping-woman-and-breaking-her-nose.html

But in fairness, the discussion point I was responding to did not include King. King is the anomaly. He should have been treated worse than he was, not just because he is guilty of sexual assault, but because he is a repeat offender, he has shown an inability to take advantage of a second chance to be a better person. The only argument against the Marlon King point is that we are, or are trying to be, a better society now than we were then.

Beach Seagull · Nov 22, 2014

spring hall convert said:
Which is precisely why the FA needs a coherant, consistent, enforcable and just policy on player behaviour.

BUT King getting away with being a scumbag in the past is no reason for Ched Evans to get away with it now. Most people would welcome the outcry over Evans as a sign of progress rather than using inconsistencies of the past to defend the rights of a convicted rapist.

Amazing how there was barely a peep when Marlon King signed for SU or Coventry and Brum after he was released. Likewise Luke McCormick. How come King got away with 'being a scumbag' but CE evidently hasn't? Where were the BBC and the Guardian then? The whole thing has just given a platform for the politically correct elite to showcase their credentials. Amazing how in this country you can drunkenly kill two children and come back into football but you can't if you are convicted of rape.

Steve.S · Nov 22, 2014

BensGrandad said:
That is the whole point of a possible appeal his lawyers maintain that isnt what happened. I do not understand why people are still going on about this with no knowledge other than media reports, all will be resolved soon.

This thread should have been locked ages ago as should all reporting as the matter is now in legal hands.

Reporting is lifted after the guilty verdict. He has already had 2 failed appeal attempts. The case has gone to an independent body to look at and decide if it needs to go back to an appeal court, if it goes back then judges will look at it again and could still decide the verdict stands or they could opt for a retrial, then at that time reporting restrictions could be put in place.

spring hall convert · Nov 22, 2014

Acker79 said:
But in fairness, the discussion point I was responding to did not include King. King is the anomaly. He should have been treated worse than he was, not just because he is guilty of sexual assault, but because he is a repeat offender, he has shown an inability to take advantage of a second chance to be a better person. The only argument against the Marlon King point is that we are, or are trying to be, a better society now than we were then.

Thought the driving point included King. Apologies.

I agree wholeheartedly with what you say.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 22, 2014

Steve.S said:
Rape comes after sex crimes against children, lowest of the low. Should Evans resume his carer or get a job else where. The question has to be asked, would anyone want a convicted rapist working along side their wife/girlfriend/daughters? That's the trouble with society, yes people should be given a second chance, but a lot of people will always say not near me. Unfortunately some crimes will always be more abhorrent then others. The question for Evans will be where does he go if his appeal fails? More to the point, what if he wins his appeal, I have a feeling that his character has been tarnished and he will find it hard to get a club.

Which is why false claims of rape are so abhorrent. I would have thought murder and manslaughter were low on the scale.

spring hall convert · Nov 22, 2014

Beach Seagull said:
Amazing how there was barely a peep when Marlon King signed for SU or Coventry and Brum after he was released. Likewise Luke McCormick. How come King got away with 'being a scumbag' but CE evidently hasn't? Where were the BBC and the Guardian then? The whole thing has just given a platform for the politically correct elite to showcase their credentials. Amazing how in this country you can drunkenly kill two children and come back into football but you can't if you are convicted of rape.

So to summarize, you think that people are pretending to be offended by rape to look cool?

I remember being disgusted at Marlon King being allowed back after the 2009 conviction as it goes, as were many people I know. Our attitudes to sex crime have changed as a society in the intervening 6 years. It's a good thing.

I still don't see your point. King got away with it, Evans hasn't bee so lucky. That's a good thing.

Steve.S · Nov 22, 2014

Thunder Bolt said:
Which is why false claims of rape are so abhorrent. I would have thought murder and manslaughter were low on the scale.

To a certain extent, but then murders happen for different reasons? A sex offender will always find it difficult to rebuild their life. They tend to be separated in prison as other prisoners are likely to do damage to them. That's just a fact of life.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 22, 2014

spring hall convert said:
So to summarize, you think that people are pretending to be offended by rape to look cool?

I remember being disgusted at Marlon King being allowed back after the 2009 conviction as it goes, as were many people I know. Our attitudes to sex crime have changed as a society in the intervening 6 years. It's a good thing.

I still don't see your point. King got away with it, Evans hasn't bee so lucky. That's a good thing.

What is a suitable punishment for a sex crime? At the moment it is prison, release on licence which has a lot of restrictions, and signing on a sex offenders register.
Should the con never work again, and be kept on benefits? Should they not get benefits but starve to death somewhere on the streets? When does punishment stop and rehabilitation start?

Maybe you ought to boycott Timpsons as they make a point of employing ex prisoners.

spring hall convert · Nov 22, 2014

Thunder Bolt said:
What is a suitable punishment for a sex crime? At the moment it is prison, release on licence which has a lot of restrictions, and signing on a sex offenders register.
Should the con never work again, and be kept on benefits? Should they not get benefits but starve to death somewhere on the streets? When does punishment stop and rehabilitation start?

Maybe you ought to boycott Timpsons as they make a point of employing ex prisoners.

This has been done to death. It's the nature of the job in question. There's plenty of jobs a convicted rapist could never go back to after a conviction, spent or not.

He's absolutely fine to work as far as I'm concerned, just not in the public eye. Rape victims deserve to not have to be exposed to images of their rapist in the public eye.

Plenty of sports have policies on this sort of thing, it's just that football, as usual is languishing in the dark ages.

Acker79 · Nov 22, 2014

Beach Seagull said:
Amazing how there was barely a peep when Marlon King signed for SU or Coventry and Brum after he was released. Likewise Luke McCormick. How come King got away with 'being a scumbag' but CE evidently hasn't? Where were the BBC and the Guardian then? The whole thing has just given a platform for the politically correct elite to showcase their credentials. Amazing how in this country you can drunkenly kill two children and come back into football but you can't if you are convicted of rape.

Barely a peep.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...s-poised-to-join-League-One-Swindon-Town.html
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/may/26/luke-mccormick-second-chance-debate
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...8/Luke-McCormick-Swindon-chairman-resign.html

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2010/aug/10/marlon-king-qpr-wigan-fans
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2010/aug/15/marlon-king-return-football
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/...coventry-city-how-predictable-how-depressing/
http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1167...-s-marlon-king-signing-shows-no-care-for-fans (70% of United fans opposed his signing, apparently).
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/fo...g-I-ll-take-flak-from-my-Sheffield-supporters

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2320059/Lee-Hughes-out-of-jail-and-all-set-to-play.html
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/anger-as-shamed-hughes-signs-deal-41420

aolstudios · Nov 22, 2014

BensGrandad said:
What is different ? Evans didnt intend to rape the sweet innocent girl as he maintains she consented to everything.

I hate this phrase. A few people have used it & it's not only irrelevant, it just shows ignorance, at best from the poster

dazzer6666 · Nov 22, 2014

BensGrandad said:
That is the whole point of a possible appeal his lawyers maintain that isnt what happened. I do not understand why people are still going on about this with no knowledge other than media reports, all will be resolved soon.

This thread should have been locked ages ago as should all reporting as the matter is now in legal hands.

I give up. You're comparing the cases on the basis of what Evans claimed happened, rather than what the legal process has determined happened.

spring hall convert · Nov 22, 2014

BensGrandad said:
his lawyers maintain that isnt what happened.

Which is the stance they are being paid to take.

As things stand he is a convicted rapist.

BensGrandad · Nov 22, 2014

I am not comparing it at all my view is based solely on his ability as a player not knowing the full facts of the case. Lets wait and see if an appeal is successful if not he deserves all he gets. I think the matter should be sub judice until a decision on an appeal is reached.

JCL - the new kid in town · Nov 22, 2014

BensGrandad said:
I am not comparing it at all my view is based solely on his ability as a player not knowing the full facts of the case. Lets wait and see if an appeal is successful if not he deserves all he gets. I think the matter should be sub judice until a decision on an appeal is reached.

So it's all on ability. If he was an amazing doctor you'd want him reinstated as a doctor?

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