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The Ukraine/Russia Situation



Lawson

New member
Feb 25, 2012
294
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but this is more conjecture. You have obviously made up your mind. I'm going to wait and see what the evidence shows.

You would think, the way the media is covering this, that evidence actually existed.

The cry of conjecture will only get you so far in defence of the Russian stance and the fact you dismiss my arguments as thus suggests that you haven't actually been tracing the events in the Ukraine in the past year or Russian foreign policy in the last decade. You have dismissed irrefutable and powerful evidence without any cogent rebuttal besides conjecture which really reveals that you haven't considered the examples that i have provided.

i am not sure what you think the media is claiming without evidence. that Russia has provided arms to the rebels?

technically you can wheel out the old cries of propaganda, bias and conjecture, but that is GCSE critique, and something you have whipped out of you at any higher level of education as it has no real grounding. Conjecture perhaps but does the balance of evidence go in the favour of one camp? you balance arguments and available evidence you make inferences. It is conjecture for me to claim you are a Brighton fan, you could infact float around the web looking for political debate, but the balance of evidence suggests you are because you are on a Brighton forum, you are clearly an active member judging by your posts, and your views in the other ones will demonstrate you do in fact love the Albion. Technically everything is conjecture until you see it with your own eyes, even then we are liable to be deceived, there are very few things in this world with which we can speak of as irrefutable truths. Every news source is biased, we are people and not robots and we are a product of every situational encounter or privilege we are born with, but that doesn't make all news sources useless or unobjective, you need more substantiated criticism.

This isn't meant as a personal attack and you are entitled to your views, it is also very important to be critical of the information disseminated by mass media, however i often find that people go to an excessive defence of Russia or North Korea that leads to a complete rejection of the facts and evidence in hands and devolves in to fantasy where bias, conjecture and propaganda without a good base of evidence to make arguments from and i fear this is the case here. I am more open than most to Russia's position however it is impossible to deny certain factors which mitigate their moral standing in this affair, and i have to take a balanced view according to available evidence.

What kind of evidence do you want? things aren't black and white, Russia will never come out in the next few years and admit their support for the armed insurrection taking place in Ukraine or admit to the political murders conducted under Putin, it took long enough to get most of the Communist ones out and even then there are still many that are unverifiable. Sometimes inferences are all we can make, and usually are, but there is nothing wrong with drawing conclusions with a consideration of the evidence. You are welcome to your view however i feel you are trying too hard to refute the evidence in hand and to deny the proactive role that Russia has taken, it is hard to argue against because you have provided no justification for your stance besides 'conjecture' which really has no weight as criticism without elaboration.
 




Rugrat

Well-known member
Mar 13, 2011
10,215
Seaford
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but this is more conjecture. You have obviously made up your mind. I'm going to wait and see what the evidence shows.

You would think, the way the media is covering this, that evidence actually existed.

As a "neutral" I think it's you that has their mind made up. Having read through this thread it's quite clear where you are coming from and your motivation for starting it

I'm no expert at all and no desire to get involved in a debate with you about it.

Also echo the sentiments of [MENTION=25402]Blue Valkyrie[/MENTION]
 


dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
The cry of conjecture will only get you so far in defence of the Russian stance

Isn't it conjecture itself that only get's us so far? It's evidence that trumps conjecture, not the other way around.

A complete rejection of the facts and evidence in hands and devolves in to fantasy where bias, conjecture and propaganda without a good base of evidence to make arguments from and i fear this is the case here

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. So let's agree we are evidence lovers and conjecture haters. I don't see evidence, I see you saying it exists, but I look and can't find it. As to the crash, it's a current news story, so we know (hopefully) that the cause of the crash hasn't been determined. Please don't do what you are describing above.

What kind of evidence do you want?

Any will do, but right now the closest thing to what we are talking about is evidence of who was responsible for the crash, if you claim to know. & the evidence of what you claim Russia is doing. Which it may be doing, I would just like to see the evidence for myself. Not being unreasonable.
 
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dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
As a "neutral" I think it's you that has their mind made up. Having read through this thread it's quite clear where you are coming from and your motivation for starting it

I'm no expert at all and no desire to get involved in a debate with you about it.

Also echo the sentiments of [MENTION=25402]Blue Valkyrie[/MENTION]

How so? I don't know either way who shot down the plane, or why.

I'm just asking people who say that they know, where they saw the evidence for it.

Hardly unreasonable.
 


Lawson

New member
Feb 25, 2012
294
Isn't it conjecture itself that only get's us so far? It's evidence that trumps conjecture, not the other way around.



Yes, that's what I'm talking about. So let's agree we are evidence lovers and conjecture haters. I don't see evidence, I see you saying it exists, but I look and can't find it. As to the crash, it's a current news story, so we know (hopefully) that the cause of the crash hasn't been determined. Please don't do what you are describing above.



Any will do, but right now the closest thing to what we are talking about is evidence of why was responsible for the crash, if you claim to know. & the evidence of what you claim Russia is doing. Which it may be doing, I would just like to see the evidence for myself. Not being unreasonable.

We have to piece together evidence and make conclusions based upon it. We do not have irrefutable evidence which as i said can never exist anyway, a confession you could always claim was forced, a report drawn up you could always claim was biased or falsified if you are determined to see it that way which i believe you are. The evidence thus far points in the direction of the rebels, there is nothing wrong in drawing conclusions we can be open to the facts changing but all evidence is point in one direction logically and it would take a very unusual and abstract view to suggest rebel guilt. The rebels have been shooting down aircraft, are anti West in disposition, the ukranian government has no reason to target the plane (you could go the conspiracy route that you lure western intervention but that was never going to happen anyway), plus the Ukranian military simply are not stupid enough to shoot down the plane because of the repercussions, this is similarly why i do not give credence to the view Russia did it directly, the rebels are the only ones with a motive who could act without real consequences, they have also hindered investigation attempts. If you want the evidence for my claims read up on these developments from a variety of news sources. I am a firm believer in never telling lies so i am just repeating the knowledge and view i have developed over time from what i believe to be a balanced and objective search for the truth, but i alas have not got a compiled list of references for you. I feel i am hitting a brick wall here and you are being deliberately obstinate because you have already resigned yourself to a rigid view of this affair, with your stance even if evidence did come around you could undermine it.
 




Creaky

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2013
3,842
Hookwood - Nr Horley
Whilst there may be rebel elements there are undeniably terrorist factions; deliberately targeting a civilian jet is a terrorist action, they undoubtedly intended it as a target because anyone idiot from the ground could identify whether it was a military or civilian aircraft when it comes to one of that size, their conduct with the wreckage afterwards has been disgusting; contaminating the scene, attempting to restrict access, moving the bodies and hiding the black box which hinders investigation.

Really! At thirty odd thousand feet!
 


dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
We have to piece together evidence and make conclusions based upon it. We do not have irrefutable evidence which as i said can never exist anyway, a confession you could always claim was forced, a report drawn up you could always claim was biased or falsified if you are determined to see it that way which i believe you are. The evidence thus far points in the direction of the rebels, there is nothing wrong in drawing conclusions we can be open to the facts changing but all evidence is point in one direction logically and it would take a very unusual and abstract view to suggest rebel guilt. The rebels have been shooting down aircraft, are anti West in disposition, the ukranian government has no reason to target the plane (you could go the conspiracy route that you lure western intervention but that was never going to happen anyway), plus the Ukranian military simply are not stupid enough to shoot down the plane because of the repercussions, this is similarly why i do not give credence to the view Russia did it directly, the rebels are the only ones with a motive who could act without real consequences, they have also hindered investigation attempts. If you want the evidence for my claims read up on these developments from a variety of news sources. I am a firm believer in never telling lies so i am just repeating the knowledge and view i have developed over time from what i believe to be a balanced and objective search for the truth, but i alas have not got a compiled list of references for you. I feel i am hitting a brick wall here and you are being deliberately obstinate because you have already resigned yourself to a rigid view of this affair, with your stance even if evidence did come around you could undermine it.

I would have preferred some evidence.
 


Goldstone1976

We Got Calde in!!
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patron
Apr 30, 2013
13,783
Herts
Troll: "In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]" From wiki.

Trolls are not welcome on NSC.
 




dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
Troll: "In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]" From wiki.

Trolls are not welcome on NSC.

Is this thread not welcome on NSC?

You're the mod, you decide.
 
















peterward

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Nov 11, 2009
11,347
But should we support the Ukrainian military against the rebels in the East?

Everything I have seen suggests the opposite.

Should you support a sovereign nation try and rid itself of foreign invaders, destroying its country, firing heavy artillery at it and terrorising its citizens?

Just for you Dingodan, a very interesting article with quotes from the Russian Military commander of the "rebels" as you call, or "Russian terrorists" as I will. In it Igor Girkin, or Strelkov reveals his biggest shock is that in the pro Russian, Russian speaking Donbass region of over 4.6 million citizens...... just to reiterate that bit again......4.6 million pro russian, russian speaking Citizens! the number of actual Ukrainan citizens that have joined this Russian terrorist organisation is just 1000. 4.6 million pro russian ukrainians and just 1000 volunteers to compliment the Russian military officers, russian citizen volunteers, russian mercenaries and chechens.

Enjoy http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/25/putin-s-number-one-gunman-in-ukraine-warns-him-of-possible-defeat.html

And this article from pro russian citizens in Donbass liberated from these scumbags....surely their must be a secret sinister US plot somewhere in there!

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/severodonetsk-residents-recall-occupiers-brutality-357837.html
 


Czechmate

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2011
1,212
Brno Czech Republic
I believe the news we receive is very biased , the Ukrainian parliament is just to blame as much as the Pro-Russian Separatists or Russian speaking Ukrainians , why the US are getting involved I haven't got a clue , the EU I understand . Why the Ukrainian government , after the coup didn't visit Crimea or Eastern Ukraine ?, all they were interested in was financial support , possibly military with visits to nearly everybody in Europe and also the White House and not visiting the possible (at the time) problematic area's ? I am not pro -Russian and just think we haven't see a fair view of everything on British media , for example the first time we saw any bombing pictures in East Ukraine was on BBC last night , with people crying , dying in the streets locals commenting why are the Ukrainian government doing this to us ? Bombed houses etc .

Even today the UN said 100,00 have been displaced , another 120,000 plus have moved over the border to Russia because they are scared , these are Ukrainians whether Russian speaking or not it doesn't matter .

The video I saw of an American government official talking with a Ukraine government official was unbelievable saying they need Klitchko to stand down , not be in politics and is not the right person , yesterday I learnt he has stepped down ?? The US calling the shots ?? why ??

There may be Russian officers in charge but most who are fighting are locals who do not want closer ties with the EU , just as the US offered to train the Ukraine army and $3bn to buy whatever was suggested so both sides are as bad as each other .

I have made my decision on what I have seen , not RT but Al Jazzeer , France 24 , Euronews and believe it or not CNN sometimes. For people in the West it is easy to blame Putin and with the media as well on his back what chance has he ? he is not my cup of tea or probably will ever be but to blame him all the time without an ounce of evidence just proves the motives of the west . No president is perfect they all have their underhand tactics whether Putin or Obama .

If ever any evidence comes to light which will change my mind then so be it but not on hearsay or rumours or probable opinions .

When the Kiev people trashed the Russian embassy not so long ago did you see all the swastika's plastered all over the building ? are these the right people to take Ukraine forward ? the right wing element in parliament ? both sides need to start talking with the EU as mediators (not US) , both sides are very stubborn , just bring peace to the place .

Someone wrote earlier that he has been to Kiev recently and his friends wanted closer ties with the EU , fair enough but I have friends in Dnepropetrovsk further east and some want closer EU ties and some want closer Russian ties so what I am saying is to look at both sides of the story ! To be fair most of the Ukrainians want peace and lets hope this happens .
 


dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
Should you support a sovereign nation try and rid itself of foreign invaders, destroying its country, firing heavy artillery at it and terrorising its citizens?

Just for you Dingodan, a very interesting article with quotes from the Russian Military commander of the "rebels" as you call, or "Russian terrorists" as I will. In it Igor Girkin, or Strelkov reveals his biggest shock is that in the pro Russian, Russian speaking Donbass region of over 4.6 million citizens...... just to reiterate that bit again......4.6 million pro russian, russian speaking Citizens! the number of actual Ukrainan citizens that have joined this Russian terrorist organisation is just 1000. 4.6 million pro russian ukrainians and just 1000 volunteers to compliment the Russian military officers, russian citizen volunteers, russian mercenaries and chechens.

Enjoy http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/25/putin-s-number-one-gunman-in-ukraine-warns-him-of-possible-defeat.html

And this article from pro russian citizens in Donbass liberated from these scumbags....surely their must be a secret sinister US plot somewhere in there!

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/severodonetsk-residents-recall-occupiers-brutality-357837.html

Have you seen evidence of the rebels firing on civilians?

Should we support the Ukrainian army if they are firing on civilians?

(Donetsk) – Unguided Grad rockets launched apparently by Ukrainian government forces and pro-government militias have killed at least 16 civilians and wounded many more in insurgent-controlled areas of Donetsk and its suburbs in at least four attacks between July 12 and 21, 2014, Human Rights Watch said today.

The use of indiscriminate rockets in populated areas violates international humanitarian law, or the laws of war, and may amount to war crimes.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-killing-civilians

 


TomandJerry

Well-known member
Oct 1, 2013
11,450
Ukrainian army closes in on Donetsk as rebel fighters call on Russia for help

Fighting has raged on the western outskirts of Donetsk as the advancing Ukrainian army tried to seize control of the rebel stronghold.

The separatists, who are in danger of being encircled, have renewed their calls for Russia to send troops to their aid.

To support their operations, the pro-Russia fighters have been confiscating vehicles and food from residents and businesses in Donetsk. The centre of the major industrial city is all but deserted, with few people or cars on the streets and most stores and restaurants closed.
 




daveinprague

New member
Oct 1, 2009
12,572
Prague, Czech Republic
Whilst realising ive smoked a couple of joints since arriving home...I swear i just heard on the BBC world news that there are plans for elements of the British army to join exercises with the Ukrainian army.... sounds like a great idea.
 


somerset

New member
Jul 14, 2003
6,600
Yatton, North Somerset
Whilst realising ive smoked a couple of joints since arriving home...I swear i just heard on the BBC world news that there are plans for elements of the British army to join exercises with the Ukrainian army.... sounds like a great idea.
Nothing new DIP ... its held every year, and also included your beloved 'fatherland' amongst many others.

In addition to US and UK troops, Rapid Trident 2014 will include units from Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Canada, Georgia, Germany, Moldova, Poland, Romania and Ukraine.

Rapid Trident military exercises have been held annually on the territory of Ukraine for a number of years.
 


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