Sharon shoe smith you just could not make this up....only in this country

keaton · Jul 24, 2014

Mo Gosfield said:
No. Most of us aren't accountants.
Some of us run small and medium sized businesses, generating wealth for the economy, employing staff, paying all our taxes in the UK, non-reliant on fat public sector pensions, working 80+ hours a week and still finding time for family/childcare responsibilities at home.
I'm sure child care services is a difficult profession but then so are many others. They all carry their share of pressure and responsibility. Sharon Shoesmith should have resigned gracefully and with dignity but relied on our compensation culture to set her up nicely. She got the equivalent of five years salary ( £130k pa....ffs....unbelievable ) and if she lives off £30k a year, well thats another 20+ years taken care of.
It saddens me but doesn't surprise me. The public purse is raided all too often for compensation, handout or reward for failure. Its like signing up for a privileged club. Don't worry, we'll look after you.
The lunatics took over the asylum a long time ago. They knew a good thing when they saw it.

I couldn't think of a more stressful job than Children's social services. From the abuse you get, the scrutiny you're under from other agencies, your bosses and yourself, the guidelines you have to obey and what you have to see and read about. Lots of people have very stressful jobs, but some are pretty insanely stressful

strings · Jul 24, 2014

gibseagull said:
Ball's fault. He did not have the legal authority to sack her.

Absolutely this. The headline should be that political interference has cost the taxpayer £688,000 plus God-knows how much in legal fees.

DJ Leon · Jul 24, 2014

glasfryn said:
there is why, I could not have put it so well myself
the buck stopped with her, she did not do her job and blamed others

Whether she did her job or not IS the question. This tribunal has obviously found that she was treated unfairly, I don't believe you've looked a the evidence to present an informed opinion on that.

Without Googling though - can you name any of those 3 people convicted for the killing of that poor boy? Most people won't be able to.

glasfryn · Jul 24, 2014

...

DJ Leon said:
Whether she did her job or not IS the question. This tribunal has obviously found that she was treated unfairly, I don't believe you've looked a the evidence to present an informed opinion on that.

Without Googling though - can you name any of those 3 people convicted for the killing of that poor boy? Most people won't be able to.

hers was Tracy something
maybe the tribunal did find that she was treated unfairly that is in law, but I bet you spoke to them privately they would say like most that morally she is a despicable human being
it was the first time they tried to interview her that got me the slight smirk she had on her face, knowing full well that whatever happened she would clean up
as I said before despicable

itszamora · Jul 24, 2014

glasfryn said:
...

hers was Tracy something
maybe the tribunal did find that she was treated unfairly that is in law, but I bet you spoke to them privately they would say like most that morally she is a despicable human being
it was the first time they tried to interview her that got me the slight smirk she had on her face, knowing full well that whatever happened she would clean up
as I said before despicable

So you've decided she's "despicable" because you're sure the tribunal would have said she is despicable, even though they actually said something else and awarded her a lot of money for unfair dismissal. And all this comes off the back of some people murdering a child in the borough she was responsible for. OK. Showing your razor-sharp analysis yet again there.

glasfryn · Jul 24, 2014

itszamora said:
So you've decided she's "despicable" because you're sure the tribunal would have said she is despicable, even though they actually said something else and awarded her a lot of money for unfair dismissal. And all this comes off the back of some people murdering a child in the borough she was responsible for. OK. Showing your razor-sharp analysis yet again there.

they said she is entitled to the money because that is the law and what I said was that privately they may have thought this was morally wrong like many and even some on here
the buck stopped with her
Balls sacked her as a knee-jerk reaction, he did not do his job properly no one died
she did not do her job properly, and whatever you or anyone else says the buck stopped with her and because of her inability to do the job a child died ...............if you think that is OK and we the tax payer should pay her for her failure then that is your opinion.
public opinion it seems also has a razor-sharp analysis, in fact I would go as far as saying the British public are raging at those who pick up a bonus for not doing their job ..............especially her

itszamora · Jul 24, 2014

glasfryn said:
they said she is entitled to the money because that is the law and what I said was that privately they may have thought this was morally wrong like many and even some on here
the buck stopped with her
Balls sacked her as a knee-jerk reaction, he did not do his job properly no one died
she did not do her job properly, and whatever you or anyone else says the buck stopped with her and because of her inability to do the job a child died ...............if you think that is OK and we the tax payer should pay her for her failure then that is your opinion.
public opinion it seems also has a razor-sharp analysis, in fact I would go as far as saying the British public are raging at those who pick up a bonus for not doing their job ..............especially her

Was it really directly her fault that a child died, though? No. I have no proof of this, much like you've no proof of anything you've said, but I imagine she was devastated by what happened. As others have pointed out, do we demand the CEO of Tesco is removed if a product from there is faulty? Does the Queen summarily dismiss the Prime Minister when another member of the Cabinet is careless and photographed walking into Downing Street with confidential documents on show? Do we call for Paul Barber's head regarding every perceived wrong at BHAFC? Well, actually, yes to that one, but it just shows how absurd the summary dismissal was and how, rightfully, she has been compensated for the fact that she was treated unfairly and unlawfully.

Pavilionaire · Jul 24, 2014

A great effort from Ed Balls, doing what he does best - wasting public money. Even out of power he's just cost the government £700K.

glasfryn · Jul 24, 2014

itszamora said:
Was it really directly her fault that a child died, though? No. I have no proof of this, much like you've no proof of anything you've said, but I imagine she was devastated by what happened. As others have pointed out, do we demand the CEO of Tesco is removed if a product from there is faulty? Does the Queen summarily dismiss the Prime Minister when another member of the Cabinet is careless and photographed walking into Downing Street with confidential documents on show? Do we call for Paul Barber's head regarding every perceived wrong at BHAFC? Well, actually, yes to that one, but it just shows how absurd the summary dismissal was and how, rightfully, she has been compensated for the fact that she was treated unfairly and unlawfully.

IMHO yes she was in charge of the department that dealt with this case, did not resign, continued to take the money, and intimated that the social workers were to blame
as I said despicable
there are those who do the same and will be forgotten because the death of a child did not happen on their watch, she will always be remembered for this

itszamora · Jul 24, 2014

glasfryn said:
IMHO yes she was in charge of the department that dealt with this case, did not resign, continued to take the money, and intimated that the social workers were to blame
as I said despicable
there are those who do the same and will be forgotten because the death of a child did not happen on their watch, she will always be remembered for this

So you reckon it was DIRECTLY her fault? Not the fault of the people who are behind bars for doing it? They're not DIRECTLY responsible, she is? That's what you're saying, correct?

glasfryn · Jul 24, 2014

itszamora said:
So you reckon it was DIRECTLY her fault? Not the fault of the people who are behind bars for doing it? They're not DIRECTLY responsible, she is? That's what you're saying, correct?

they are all at fault
the parents for the act
and her for allowing the act to happen
I will ask you a question do you think she should get off Scot free and have absolutely no responsibility for this at all?

do you think anyone who knows something like this can happen and does nothing to stop it is not responsible?
do you think if I had been her I would have done nothing to stop this happening?

a a little true short story here
while I was a prison officer I knew that one of the lads(18) was very upset at one of his family dying, I had him taken out of the prison wing and put into the hospital wing where he was put on 15 minute watch (suicide watch).
I am not saying that he would have topped himself .....but I made sure that he could not have(he did try some weeks later unsuccessfully) if me knowing that is how he felt and doing nothing I would have resigned and had that to deal with for the rest of my life.
he was my responsibility like that poor child was hers.
not a precise analogy, but you can see where I am coming from

GT49er · Jul 24, 2014

itszamora said:
So you reckon it was DIRECTLY her fault? Not the fault of the people who are behind bars for doing it? They're not DIRECTLY responsible, she is? That's what you're saying, correct?

Oh for heaven's sake - of course Shoesmith didn't kill the child, the parents did and they are responsible for their actions and rightly facing the consequences. Shoesmith was paid a huge salary to run a department whose specific job was to prevent things like this happening - but it did happen; ON HER WATCH - the buck stops with her, and it is sickening that she's made a mint out of failing to do her job properly.

itszamora · Jul 24, 2014

GT49er said:
Oh for heaven's sake - of course Shoesmith didn't kill the child, the parents did and they are responsible for their actions and rightly facing the consequences. Shoesmith was paid a huge salary to run a department whose specific job was to prevent things like this happening - but it did happen; ON HER WATCH - the buck stops with her, and it is sickening that she's made a mint out of failing to do her job properly.

I think, unfortunately, it's sadly impossible to stop every eventuality where that could happen. She's not made a mint out of doing her job properly, she's made a mint out of Ed Balls completely ignoring employment law. And given that she's practically unemployable now, with her name having been dragged through the mud so much, I don't think it's particularly unjustified that she's been compensated.

Mo Gosfield · Jul 24, 2014

DJ Leon said:
What a load of Ed Balls. 'I'm sure child care services is a difficult profession'. Frankly, I don't think you have a clue about how difficult it is. I've no doubt you are oblivious to the horror that's out there.

Please - tell everyone what you do for a living. Let's compare the difficult decisions you make every day with those of a social worker in children services.

The right of reply.
1) Sadly, I do have a clue as to what goes on and how difficult it is dealing with child care issues. My own brother-in-law worked in this area and often had to appear in court, under threat of violence and more from the accused. My own sister was abused, as a young girl, by our older brother, with our parents oblivious to the fact. My wife, after years of torment, finally admitted that she and her sister, as young girls had been persistently abused by a family member. Her own mother refused to believe them and sided with the individual concerned. These traumatic issues surfaced deep into our marriage, she had kept them bottled up and eventually, they got the better of her and she was unable to cope with the psychological scars.
My earlier comment was not intended to class child care services as just another difficult profession. I would think it is pretty damn tough and most of us wouldn't want to do it. My main point was that this woman should have fallen on her sword and resigned. Up to 12-15 years ago it was expected of public figures who failed in their duty to do just this ( they still got a pay off but quietly and out of the public eye ) but that has all changed now and the industrial tribunal is now the first port of call.She decided to make it high profile and screw what she could out of the public purse. Technically, she won the case, morally she showed disdain for her responsibilities. Balls is an idiot ( like a lot of them ) and should have sought informed advice. He should have been sacked for sheer incompetence, wasting nearly £1m of tax payers money.
2) I am a company owner, employing between 20-30 people at any given time. My staff range in profile across the social spectrum and they all have their personal issues and problems, that they regularly bring to work. Although I have a myriad of decisions to make each working day, some unpleasant, I don't doubt that most of mine pale into insignificance compared to decision making that could save or cost the life of a child.
To suggest that I am oblivious to the horror out there when you don't even know me or my background was frankly, uncalled for. I assume that you work in child care services as you seem so well informed. If so, I take my hat off to you and say keep up the good work. If you don't, perhaps you would let me know what you do for a living and we can compare notes.

glasfryn · Jul 24, 2014

Mo Gosfield said:
No. Most of us aren't accountants.
Some of us run small and medium sized businesses, generating wealth for the economy, employing staff, paying all our taxes in the UK, non-reliant on fat public sector pensions, working 80+ hours a week and still finding time for family/childcare responsibilities at home.
I'm sure child care services is a difficult profession but then so are many others. They all carry their share of pressure and responsibility. Sharon Shoesmith should have resigned gracefully and with dignity but relied on our compensation culture to set her up nicely. She got the equivalent of five years salary ( £130k pa....ffs....unbelievable ) and if she lives off £30k a year, well thats another 20+ years taken care of.
It saddens me but doesn't surprise me. The public purse is raided all too often for compensation, handout or reward for failure. Its like signing up for a privileged club. Don't worry, we'll look after you.
The lunatics took over the asylum a long time ago. They knew a good thing when they saw it.

Mo Gosfield said:
The right of reply.
1) Sadly, I do have a clue as to what goes on and how difficult it is dealing with child care issues. My own brother-in-law worked in this area and often had to appear in court, under threat of violence and more from the accused. My own sister was abused, as a young girl, by our older brother, with our parents oblivious to the fact. My wife, after years of torment, finally admitted that she and her sister, as young girls had been persistently abused by a family member. Her own mother refused to believe them and sided with the individual concerned. These traumatic issues surfaced deep into our marriage, she had kept them bottled up and eventually, they got the better of her and she was unable to cope with the psychological scars.
My earlier comment was not intended to class child care services as just another difficult profession. I would think it is pretty damn tough and most of us wouldn't want to do it. My main point was that this woman should have fallen on her sword and resigned. Up to 12-15 years ago it was expected of public figures who failed in their duty to do just this ( they still got a pay off but quietly and out of the public eye ) but that has all changed now and the industrial tribunal is now the first port of call.She decided to make it high profile and screw what she could out of the public purse. Technically, she won the case, morally she showed disdain for her responsibilities. Balls is an idiot ( like a lot of them ) and should have sought informed advice. He should have been sacked for sheer incompetence, wasting nearly £1m of tax payers money.
2) I am a company owner, employing between 20-30 people at any given time. My staff range in profile across the social spectrum and they all have their personal issues and problems, that they regularly bring to work. Although I have a myriad of decisions to make each working day, some unpleasant, I don't doubt that most of mine pale into insignificance compared to decision making that could save or cost the life of a child.
To suggest that I am oblivious to the horror out there when you don't even know me or my background was frankly, uncalled for. I assume that you work in child care services as you seem so well informed. If so, I take my hat off to you and say keep up the good work. If you don't, perhaps you would let me know what you do for a living and we can compare notes.

post of the week and a big THIS

DJ Leon · Jul 24, 2014

Mo Gosfield said:
The right of reply.
1) Sadly, I do have a clue as to what goes on and how difficult it is dealing with child care issues. My own brother-in-law worked in this area and often had to appear in court, under threat of violence and more from the accused. My own sister was abused, as a young girl, by our older brother, with our parents oblivious to the fact. My wife, after years of torment, finally admitted that she and her sister, as young girls had been persistently abused by a family member. Her own mother refused to believe them and sided with the individual concerned. These traumatic issues surfaced deep into our marriage, she had kept them bottled up and eventually, they got the better of her and she was unable to cope with the psychological scars.
My earlier comment was not intended to class child care services as just another difficult profession. I would think it is pretty damn tough and most of us wouldn't want to do it. My main point was that this woman should have fallen on her sword and resigned. Up to 12-15 years ago it was expected of public figures who failed in their duty to do just this ( they still got a pay off but quietly and out of the public eye ) but that has all changed now and the industrial tribunal is now the first port of call.She decided to make it high profile and screw what she could out of the public purse. Technically, she won the case, morally she showed disdain for her responsibilities. Balls is an idiot ( like a lot of them ) and should have sought informed advice. He should have been sacked for sheer incompetence, wasting nearly £1m of tax payers money.
2) I am a company owner, employing between 20-30 people at any given time. My staff range in profile across the social spectrum and they all have their personal issues and problems, that they regularly bring to work. Although I have a myriad of decisions to make each working day, some unpleasant, I don't doubt that most of mine pale into insignificance compared to decision making that could save or cost the life of a child.
To suggest that I am oblivious to the horror out there when you don't even know me or my background was frankly, uncalled for. I assume that you work in child care services as you seem so well informed. If so, I take my hat off to you and say keep up the good work. If you don't, perhaps you would let me know what you do for a living and we can compare notes.

I'm not a social worker, I'm in the private sector as you are. I have though worked on social care publications that report on the field, so I'm fairly informed of the challenges this workforce faces.

I think that mine was a fair assumption of your ignorance given that you compared your job as a medium sized business owner to that of someone dealing with life and death issues of children at risk. Your clear disdain for the public sector is obvious and misplaced in a debate like this. Given the experiences of your brother in law, I'm very surprised that you have this perspective. With the number of child deaths from neglect and abuse every year, I'm not sure we'd have anyone left in social work if they all just resigned the moment something happened to one of the children in their cases. The problem is huge.

I agree that she should have resigned, she probably would have done in time. Or of course she could have been fired with some due process. Regardless, Shoesmith has the same rights that your workers have that will stop you from firing them with out due process. Yes, Balls is the reason why she's got this payout and I personally think she's entitled to some of it for being made the sole name anyone associates with Baby P's death. Who were the doctors who failed to do their job? Who are the police officers who failed to their job?

All that said, I apologise unreservedly if my comments were insensitive to you personally.

kevo · Jul 24, 2014

itszamora said:
Was it really directly her fault that a child died, though? No. I have no proof of this, much like you've no proof of anything you've said, but I imagine she was devastated by what happened. As others have pointed out, do we demand the CEO of Tesco is removed if a product from there is faulty? Does the Queen summarily dismiss the Prime Minister when another member of the Cabinet is careless and photographed walking into Downing Street with confidential documents on show? Do we call for Paul Barber's head regarding every perceived wrong at BHAFC?

All of that misses the point of the severity of what happened. You can't compare a child's death to any of the other examples you cite, such as sacking the CEO at Tesco because of a faulty product.

History is full of examples of people at the top who have either been sacked or resigned (in recognition that it was the 'right thing to do') because something seriously wrong has happened when they have been in charge, irrespective of whether they were directly to blame. If something severe happens on their watch, the buck has to stop with them. And that, in my opinion, is perfectly correct.

Brighton Mod · Jul 24, 2014

Ed Balls on Jeremy Vine today, floundering for any real answers, could only resort to reference of baby P and not how he had screwed up. A child a week in this country dies at the hands of its parents every week, at Balls' pace there would be no social services left if every service having a child death under their auspices was treated in this way.

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Sharon shoe smith you just could not make this up....only in this country

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