would Scotland becoming independent be good? for them, rest of UK?

Da Man Clay · Feb 7, 2014

Bold Seagull said:
This probably couldn't work. You can't just change the terms of a debt by transferring the owner of the debt without the permission of the lender. The world's banks would probably just laugh at us if we tried this.

You are of course indeed correct. The UK would still be responsible for the debt, however, Scotland would then presumably quite simply owe us their percentage of the debt. I meant any future borrowing they would be paying more as apposed to that currently owed. Not worded at all well on my part!

Explained a little better here - http://niesr.ac.uk/blog/scottish-independence-and-uks-debt-burden#.UvVHa3ggHCQ

Jimmy Come Lately · Feb 8, 2014

soistes said:
This -- bad for us. There would be a permanent majority for the Tories in Westminster, without the Scots

Not necessarily. Here's a blog that analyses general election results since 1945 with Scottish votes removed and shows that it rarely affects the overall result. We're actually in the rare position at the moment of living through one of those parliaments where Scottish votes counted: if Scotland had been independent in 2010 the Conservatives would have had a small majority rather than needing to form a coalition. Although I'm not sure what practical difference that would have made.

cunning fergus · Feb 8, 2014

Lord Bracknell said:
The idea behind Scottish "independence" isn't to create a separate nineteenth-century-style "Nation State", but rather it's about establishing a new way of defining the inter-relationships between people. I'm full of admiration for those Scots who answer the question "Who will be a citizen of an independent Scotland?" by saying "It doesn't matter". I might even claim Scottish citizenship myself, on the basis of generations of ancestors who ploughed the land in Roxburghshire and Berwickshire.

Dismantling the nineteenth century is a good project. It's why the vision of a new Europe is exciting. A new UK is equally exciting - provided folk get the point of it. The economy of the world has long since ceased to be about rivalries between "Nations". Those opponents of a new UK who think the argument is all about dividing the wealth up between Scotland and the rest of the UK (with "winners" and "losers") are missing the point.

You seem to have the inside track on this issue, however I understand the question the scots will be asked is:

Do you want Scotland to be an independent country?

In very simple terms without their own currency they won't be independent, so you can admire away to your hearts content, without a Scottish pound/dollar they will still have to pay the piper.

As for the economy of the world drivel, what are you going on about? Do you think the ex employees of Ford in Southampton who were recently made redundant because Ford decided the transit will be built in a Turkey did high fives because their are no rivalries between nations?

osgood · Feb 8, 2014

Alex Salmond and his SNP cronies
would be short-term winners, then quite soon after, when it would all go tits-up,
then would turn to hate them ,
the question is , are mre than half of their electorate aware of this ?

Lord Bracknell · Feb 8, 2014

cunning fergus said:
As for the economy of the world drivel, what are you going on about? Do you think the ex employees of Ford in Southampton who were recently made redundant because Ford decided the transit will be built in a Turkey did high fives because their are no rivalries between nations?

The rivalry that counts isn't a rivalry between the UK and Turkey. It's the rivalry between Ford, VW, Mercedes and Nissan.

dougdeep · Feb 8, 2014

Lord Bracknell said:
It's why the vision of a new Europe is exciting.

Really? I mean really? I find it as boring as Beach Hut.

little al · Feb 8, 2014

cunning fergus said:
You seem to have the inside track on this issue, however I understand the question the scots will be asked is:

Do you want Scotland to be an independent country?

Nope, its going to be a loaded question. "Dop you want to control your own future"? To which the answer is obviously yes. I still don't think it will happen though, by far most of the people I have spoken to are in the no camp.

Blue3 · Feb 8, 2014

Lord Bracknell said:
The rivalry that counts isn't a rivalry between the UK and Turkey. It's the rivalry between Ford, VW, Mercedes and Nissan.

For a while I have been thinking that we are entering a state of flux as we see the beginning of the end of the western capitalist model and what might be replacing it.

with out nation states combining what chance will any small state have against the true retainers of world power which of course is not the politicians but corporate organisations

cunning fergus · Feb 8, 2014

Lord Bracknell said:
The rivalry that counts isn't a rivalry between the UK and Turkey. It's the rivalry between Ford, VW, Mercedes and Nissan.

Why does this inter corporate "rivalry" count more than competing national interests?

It would make some sense if you were ideologically predisposed to the notion that nation states are not relevant, and will have even less relevance in the future, a vacuum that powerful corporates will fill to control the lives of workers globally.

Or, alternatively maybe your views have been heavily influenced by the 70s science fiction film Rollerball?

explymouthnige · Feb 8, 2014

Little Al

Nope, its going to be a loaded question. "Dop you want to control your own future"? To which the answer is obviously yes. I still don't think it will happen though, by far most of the people I have spoken to are in the no camp.

Me too,
Unfortunately, they will not get a vote a they are not living in Scotland. Only those Scots North of the Border will get a say

LA1972 · Feb 8, 2014

I've noticed that when I check the football results on the BBC red button they have started putting the Scotish Premier results BEFORE English league one and two. Outrageous! At least this will stop if they gain independence

The Merry Prankster · Feb 8, 2014

Will little Alex shut up if it's a no vote?

little al · Feb 8, 2014

explymouthnige said:
Little Al

Nope, its going to be a loaded question. "Dop you want to control your own future"? To which the answer is obviously yes. I still don't think it will happen though, by far most of the people I have spoken to are in the no camp.

Me too,
Unfortunately, they will not get a vote a they are not living in Scotland. Only those Scots North of the Border will get a say

I was under the impression all Scots got a proxy, I will take another loomk at the white paper. I am English and I get a vote thankfully.

little al · Feb 8, 2014

The Merry Prankster said:
Will little Alex shut up if it's a no vote?

If the Scots vote yes, he will be screwed, his white paper is all bluff and bluster. He wants to make history thats all. If they vote no, at least he can say he put it to the people, and might survive. In all honesty, the SNP are doing a good job up here, much as it pains me to say.

I am friendly with my local MSP, and he boked me to DJ his victory party, only about 40 people turned up to an open event. He introduced me as the only Tory in Aberdeen lol.

Notters · Feb 8, 2014

little al said:
I was under the impression all Scots got a proxy, I will take another loomk at the white paper. I am English and I get a vote thankfully.

Scots get a proxy UNLESS they live in England and Wales. Which seems ridiculous.

GreersElbow · Feb 8, 2014

Lord Bracknell said:
Dismantling the nineteenth century is a good project. It's why the vision of a new Europe is exciting. A new UK is equally exciting - provided folk get the point of it. The economy of the world has long since ceased to be about rivalries between "Nations". Those opponents of a new UK who think the argument is all about dividing the wealth up between Scotland and the rest of the UK (with "winners" and "losers") are missing the point.

As an international relations student of a realist persuasion, I disagree with you regarding their no longer being rivalries between nations. I'd also point out it isn't a 19th century concept, but more of a 17th due to the Westphalian agreement. However, the concept is alive and kicking, I don't see what's wrong with creating a nation-state. That's actually what the Scots are trying to do, their national identity will then be entrenched within the state. Their democratic vote is essentially for the future of the Scottish people, it has everything to do with being a nation state. That doesn't necessarily mean they want to create a rivalry, although it probably will end up as such in the long run. Some rivalries have been good for the world, the Cold War in some way stabilised the world.

The vision of a new Europe has very little about redefining our way of looking at each other and has everything to do with power and influence. Once again the world is formed into blocs, these blocs having a significant amount of power and it only makes sense for Europe to unite in order to compete. A nation yields more power in a bloc than it does alone unless of course you're already an established or declining superpower. As Huntington once put it, the world is becoming less unilateral in power, and multibilateral in redistribution of power. The rise of China, decline of the U.S and the Russians trying to hold onto what power they did have, makes the perfect case for the European nations to unify to have their slice of the cake.

Of course this is a realist interpretation.

little al · Feb 8, 2014

Notters said:
Scots get a proxy UNLESS they live in England and Wales. Which seems ridiculous.

Yep, just checked. Bloody stupid. Salmond is afraid of ther no vote, hence letting 16 year olds vote, they are not going to vote with their heads.

GreersElbow · Feb 8, 2014

little al said:
Yep, just checked. Bloody stupid. Salmond is afraid of ther no vote, hence letting 16 year olds vote, they are not going to vote with their heads.

He's also promising the world with what is a very fragile proposed budget hedged entirely on future oil prices and the hope of a low valued currency. Thankfully that doesn't appear to be wooing the majority.

little al · Feb 8, 2014

GreersElbow said:
He's also promising the world with what is a very fragile proposed budget hedged entirely on future oil prices and the hope of a low valued currency. Thankfully that doesn't appear to be wooing the majority.

I ordered a copy of the 649 page white paper, its full of ubstantiated propagnda.

cunning fergus · Feb 8, 2014

little al said:
Nope, its going to be a loaded question. "Dop you want to control your own future"? To which the answer is obviously yes. I still don't think it will happen though, by far most of the people I have spoken to are in the no camp.

The question has been agreed........."should Scotland be an independent country?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13326310

If you want a loaded question, the one proposed for the now defunct 2017 EU referendum was going to be along the lines of "do you want the UK to be a member of the EU".

Given the issue for the UK is equally about independence in a political union framework, surely the electorate should have been faced with the same option as the Scots have got, namely.........."should the UK be an independent country?".

The mind truly boggles doesn't it.............

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would Scotland becoming independent be good? for them, rest of UK?

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