DailyMail: Cause of Death - Cannabis

Questions · Feb 3, 2014

drew said:
I don't claim to have evidence and never have. Don't think I was putting an argument one way or another, just hoping that those that did backed them up with evidence. The point you made, or implied, was that because the coroners verdict said cannabis killed then your mate should be dead. My retort was that smoking doesn't kill everyone that uses it. In other words, just because there are many that use cannabis doesn't preclude it from being the cause of death in this case. Just as with alcohol, my drug of choice if you like, there are plenty of people that drink and get on with their lives yet there are others that become dependent on it!

Seems with cannabis use (and this isn't aimed at you) that those that take it recreationally seem to feel threatened when stories like this come out and then seek to justify if with stories of people with debilitating pain using and, as in the case of Midnight Rendezvous, stories of its miraculous properties against cancer which he has so far failed to back up. My view is that I have no complaints if it is used medically and under prescription but at the moment that isn't allowed. Equally, if it was made legal then maybe there would be more control over its strength and more importantly its distribution.

The only evidence I can find is of the mentioned report which names one women who seems to be the first ever to have died of cannabis toxicity.
Control it's distribution if you want........... Then see all the redundancies come up at the Mars chocolate factory.

Philzo-93 · Feb 3, 2014

Big deal you can also die from eating too much chocolate!

MediGull · Feb 3, 2014

This thread has been an interesting read on a subject that clearly divides opinion rather sharply.

People who say that cannabis should be legalised because "I know loads of people that use it and they are fine" are making the mistake of thinking that because in your experience there is no correlation between cannabis use and psychosis that there must be no correlation at all!

However the scientific community focuses upon analysis of large groups of people and not merely individual anecdotes. As a very recent review on the subject stated: "Epidemiological studies have shown that the association between cannabis and psychosis is robust and consistent across different samples, with compelling evidence for a dose-response relationship." from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24471373

There are countless other high quality reviews and original research articles that link cannabis use (particularly in the adolescent period when the development of the brain is at one of its most active stages [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24345517]) and psychosis in later life.

However there is still debate over whether there is a sufficient level of evidence to suggest a causal link. The big problem is that as far as I am aware the gold standard of medical testing for a medicinal product is through a randomised controlled trial (RCT). To run a full scale RCT of people, randomised at birth to either take cannabis or not take cannabis and otherwise live their lives identically who are preferably twins to remove any environmental or genetic differences; is not possible. Physically, ethically and financially this will never be done.

Cannabis undoubtedly has its supporters, it also has its critics. The medical establishment has spent years trying to work out the truth and currently the prevailing view is that cannabis is a significant factor in developing psychosis, however it is unlikely we will ever really know the truth.

By the way if anyone is interested in medical stuff then it's worth popping over to pubmed or the Cochrane database for the latest high quality, peer reviewed research and developments in current medical science.

Anyway, that's just my two pence worth....

Baldseagull · Feb 4, 2014

I remember seeing a statistic years ago that had attributed 6 deaths to Cannabis in the U.S. over a five year period, included in the stats though though were people who had fallen asleep and burnt their house down, etc. But my favourite one of the 6 deaths by Cannabis, was that of a customs officer who was killed by a 40 kilo bale landing on him as smugglers were trying to throw it overboard.

Peever · Feb 4, 2014

Sounds like a load of cack...Lots of this came up all the sudden after 2 states legalized cannabis. Never heard a thing about death related to it then all sudden dozens happened.....Total shite

brightn'ove · Feb 4, 2014

Smoking cannabis: one death ever

Smoking tobacco: 100,000 deaths per year

Hmm...

smillie's garden · Feb 4, 2014

MediGull said:
This thread has been an interesting read on a subject that clearly divides opinion rather sharply.

People who say that cannabis should be legalised because "I know loads of people that use it and they are fine" are making the mistake of thinking that because in your experience there is no correlation between cannabis use and psychosis that there must be no correlation at all!

However the scientific community focuses upon analysis of large groups of people and not merely individual anecdotes. As a very recent review on the subject stated: "Epidemiological studies have shown that the association between cannabis and psychosis is robust and consistent across different samples, with compelling evidence for a dose-response relationship." from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24471373

There are countless other high quality reviews and original research articles that link cannabis use (particularly in the adolescent period when the development of the brain is at one of its most active stages [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24345517]) and psychosis in later life.

However there is still debate over whether there is a sufficient level of evidence to suggest a causal link. The big problem is that as far as I am aware the gold standard of medical testing for a medicinal product is through a randomised controlled trial (RCT). To run a full scale RCT of people, randomised at birth to either take cannabis or not take cannabis and otherwise live their lives identically who are preferably twins to remove any environmental or genetic differences; is not possible. Physically, ethically and financially this will never be done.

Cannabis undoubtedly has its supporters, it also has its critics. The medical establishment has spent years trying to work out the truth and currently the prevailing view is that cannabis is a significant factor in developing psychosis, however it is unlikely we will ever really know the truth.

By the way if anyone is interested in medical stuff then it's worth popping over to pubmed or the Cochrane database for the latest high quality, peer reviewed research and developments in current medical science.

Anyway, that's just my two pence worth....

Thank-you, Medigull, for your post. I'm not a medical professional or an expert, just somebody else with an anecdote: I'm very close to a lad who started smoking cannabis when he was about 15. At that time he was intelligent and athletic;doing well in school;and was outgoing,with many friends. His family life was solid and loving, and he didn't appear to be suffering from any psychological issues - indeed, he was a very empathetic kid. Now he is 23, and is ravaged by schizophrenia. I know this is just one case, but it is significant because this was not a person who was apparently troubled, or who had suffered abuse or trauma. He was a kid who got really into smoking, and it did a number on him really quickly.

I highlighted the part of your post that is the most important to me, and I am familiar with some of the research in this area. Cannabis, alcohol and other drugs can have very significant affects on the developing brain. I would urge anyone who knows teenagers to have a word about drug use from this perspective. Don't talk about it in a moralistic way (that's annoying and pointless), but point out that it's the only brain they have and it's still f**king growing! If they are going to take drugs, they should take it easy and definitely not do them every day.

I know, talking to youth about moderation; what a joy. Good luck with that old farts!

pastafarian · Feb 4, 2014

daveinprague said:
I have quite a bit of experience with cannaibis.
Ive smoked every day since November 1979. Im in full time employment in a technical position.

Out of interest and considering how long cannabis stays in the system would you decide to knock it on the head if you ever started to drive a car?

Tyrone Biggums · Feb 4, 2014

Notters said:
I really don't believe the chances are any greater than for alcohol, and there are many positives, from proven medical uses to creative inspiration. Whereas alcohol has more negatives too: addiction, social damage and violence.

Alcohol is worse no doubt. But judging which one is more negative doesn't really mean much when in the end both can have negative effects on people.

A lesser of an evil is still an evil.

I shake my head when people say it's harmless. If adults are telling children using weed is harmless then we're heading down the same path where of irresponsibility that we see with alcohol.

dougdeep · Feb 4, 2014

half time scores said:
I was wondering if you have ever seen alcohol ruin lives?

Yes indeed. 2 friends died from it and both of my wife's parents.

dougdeep · Feb 4, 2014

BBassic said:
Fair enough but surely you understand there's a difference between someone who enjoys a smoke and someone incapable of leading a normal life due to addiction?

Can you give it up though?

BBassic · Feb 4, 2014

dougdeep said:
Can you give it up though?

I haven't smoked anything for a year now.

dougdeep · Feb 4, 2014

I just find it amazing how a couple of people on here deny so vociferously that cannabis does any harm. I suppose all people that die of lung cancer got it from tobacco. The pot that most people smoke has far more toxins in than filter cigarettes.
What's wrong with calling people that can't give up drugs, Junkies? I'd describe people that can't stop drinking as Alkys. It's no different to calling fat people obese.

daveinprague · Feb 4, 2014

pastafarian said:
Out of interest and considering how long cannabis stays in the system would you decide to knock it on the head if you ever started to drive a car?

Its a good question. Dont think I can answer it to be honest...ive no idea how I would deal with it, if I were to drive.
I think somebody developed a breathalizer for grass, so I think its covered from that point of view...but then
people still drink and drive, so ive no doubt people will smoke and drive as well.
At the end of the day, its down to the person rather than the grass, booze or other addictive drugs.
You can blame drugs...you can blame booze, but ultimately, its the person.

Goldstone1976 · Feb 4, 2014

MediGull said:
This thread has been an interesting read on a subject that clearly divides opinion rather sharply.

I deleted the rest of your post just to save space on the thread.

Yep, a more articulate and thorough post concerning the links between cannabis use and psychosis than those I made yesterday.

BadFish · Feb 4, 2014

dougdeep said:
I just find it amazing how a couple of people on here deny so vociferously that cannabis does any harm. I suppose all people that die of lung cancer got it from tobacco. The pot that most people smoke has far more toxins in than filter cigarettes.
What's wrong with calling people that can't give up drugs, Junkies? I'd describe people that can't stop drinking as Alkys. It's no different to calling fat people obese.

You called people on this thread who were making comments defending junkies, you have absolutely no evidence that any of them can't give up drugs. Your comments were ignorant and pointless (well I say pointless, but really they got you the attention you craved so I suppose they served their purpose).

Goldstone1976 · Feb 4, 2014

BadFish said:
i would genuinely be interested to read this research, Is it available anywhere?

Have a look at Medigull's excellent post on page 4. There are are links to two recent articles. If you go on either of the reference sites he cites or Google Scholar and type in cannabis and psychosis, you will find hundreds of peer-reviewed papers that have been published in world-renowned journals.

I'm not willing to provide links to the papers that my g/f has published, simply because I don't really want to publicise her name on NSC. However, a leading UK name in this field is Prof Sir Robin Murray at the Institute of Psychiatry (KCL). You may want to use his name in the "author" field of any of the academic reference sites.

BadFish · Feb 4, 2014

Goldstone1976 said:
Have a look at Medigull's excellent post on page 4. There are are links to two recent articles. If you go on either of the reference sites he cites or Google Scholar and type in cannabis and psychosis, you will find hundreds of peer-reviewed papers that have been published in world-renowned journals.

I'm not willing to provide links to the papers that my g/f has published, simply because I don't really want to publicise her name on NSC. However, a leading UK name in this field is Prof Sir Robin Murray at the Institute of Psychiatry (KCL). You may want to use his name in the "author" field of any of the academic reference sites.

Ta thanks buddy, when I find time I will have a look.

JetsetJimbo · Feb 4, 2014

MediGull;6174587The medical establishment has spent years trying to work out the truth and currently the prevailing view is that cannabis is a significant factor in developing psychosis said:
Just out of curiosity, do you remember when all the press were screaming about a 40% chance of developing schizophrenia from cannabis a few years back? That hype was the main reason that Gordon Brown was able to reclassify it to B. What a lot of people didn't realise is what that 40% greater (that word was often missing from media reports) risk actually represented: a single study showed that somebody who has never touched the stuff in their life had a 1.0% chance of developing schizophrenia during their lifetime, whereas a very heavy skunk smoker (I can't remember the exact quantities, but it was more in week than I'd get through in a month) had a 1.4% chance of the same.

What it didn't (couldn't?) take into account was how many of those 1.4% were using cannabis to self-medicate existing mental health issues. The fact that in the US, states that allow medicinal cannabis have seen suicides of young men aged under 25 drop by just over 10%, and of those aged 26--35 by just under 10%, suggests it might be a significant proportion.

The point in all that is this: be very wary of what the UK media tells you those studies say. They cherry-pick to support their prejudices, just as they do with other issues.

Goldstone1976 · Feb 4, 2014

JetsetJimbo said:
The point in all that is this: be very wary of what the UK media tells you those studies say. They cherry-pick to support their prejudices, just as they do with other issues.

Ain't that the truth? The only way to get a balanced view on this subject, as with all other complicated issues, is to read the source material itself and form an opinion.

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